"Skirmish WWII rules for newbies ..." Topic

Now before we get going … I am an avid/fanatic (call it what you will) NUTS (THW in general) and Ambush Alley gamer, I like playing FOW (notice I said like playing it) and will generally give anything a whirl.

What I am wondering about is why there has never been a set of rules that has got very popular for 1:1 skirmish games, like say FOW for based company stuff.

A few have tried, World at War for instance but no one has really taken the newbie market by storm (like FOW has) which is surprising really as apparently there are scores of 40K gamers waiting for a skirmish version of WWII (maybe they play FOW) … so THW junky that I am I realise they are never going to do the job because of the reaction system, AA Force on Force is neither WWII based enough and is again (I find) hard to get a newbies head around with the reaction fire stuff (not a bad thing but is never going to convert en masse a large group of newbies without anyone to guide them through).

SO what is it about rules like WaW and maybe even Rules of Engagement (which had promise being very 40k like in some ways) for instance that stop them taking off … either of these good set of rules could in my opinion have done it … what are newbies waiting for?

Is it all down to company support in terms of figures etc … will we never see a set do well until it comes with boxed squads to buy alongside the rules (buy these two boxes for a standard 500 point US airborne etc) … or is it something else …

opinions without slagging rules off, OR just recommending a set please (that is not the point of the post)…

Rich J

There used to be a couple of quite nice 40k conversions for WWII on the net (one actually done by the guy who wrote FoW if I remember rightly…). When our local club started these were the main rules we used that had most people playing.
Mick

I love my 28mm WWII skirmish figures and vehicles, I think that my "armies" look better that anything I ever did with 40K.
I have tried a few different rule systems but…
The problem with the games is they are just to samey. Doesn't matter what you play, a man with a rifle is a man with a rifle.
GW get a lot of criticism because they keep changing the rules and introducing new characters and special rules, but this is what keeps it fresh, new situations to overcome.
Battlefront does a similar thing by changing the army lists and point values, which they can do with the larger formations. Once again, keeping it fresh.
When you play skirmish with a squad of 8-10 guys with rifles and a LMG vs squad of 8-10 guys with rifles and a LMG, it gets pretty samey very quickly, sure you can up the numbers and introduce a few vehicles but after a couple of games you start to think "I've been here before".

I'm not sure but I think that Warhammer has released a 1:1 skirmish game of WWI called Great War or something like that. Wouldn't be this the same as what you're looking for but for WWI instead of WWII? AFAIK, the game hasn't been a great hit…

I think the problem here is that a set that is good for new players and converts, tends to be moved on from after a while.

The sets that are of this kind that remain WH40k, FOW etc keep there players by having the points/tournemant system.

SOme layers remain at this level as the game and group they play at are fun. Others want something more realistic and move onto others and quite often look back somewhat snobbishly.

For myself, my favourite beginner set of WW2 rules was a book called Operation Warboard, called Gavin Lyall, fun and very complete rules explained in a nice manner.

but no one has really taken the newbie market by storm

I would presume that if you want to take the new player market by the storm, then the product exposure and availability is a major issue, not just the rule mechanics themselves.

'Fighting chef'
Good points although I think the same could be said about FOW and 40K – there are ways to make the forces in WWII way different, to have heroes etc etc. OK I suspect the rules would soon make games that rivet counters would heave over … bit like FOW but that doesn't worry me really … so someone spends their points on more Pershings than actually made it to Europe (joke joke)and it would not be 'historical' I am still amazed that it hasn't happened. Is it that the rules that have tried are maybe trying to be too historical perhaps … I don't know.

Still have the nagging feeling that it is because non have provided the spoon feeding hardware support yet – like griefbringer says.

Surferdude, the Lardies with their Big Men and card activation make games that seem to capture the feel and reports of platoon/company sized actions, with rivet counters not being offended due to the emphasis on historical TOE's.

However I am not sure either I Ain't Been Shot Mum or Troops, Weapons & Tactics fit your criteria with newbies, similar issues to THWs methods I fear.

Fredd … I am not after a set as such .. a few mates and I are pondering on why it has not happened. Although I like TWAT and IABSM they were never going to crack the newbie market because they are not watertight – relying on a lot of subjective decisions of the 'big picture' (nothing wrong with that of course … I once described them to Rich as being the thinking man's FOW).

If a set of rules ever does make a huge impact (read fan base) I suspect they will be simple and lacking in feel and realism … but thats another thread :-)

Rich

"What I am wondering about is why there has never been a set of rules that has got very popular for 1:1 skirmish games, like say FOW for based company stuff."

Depends what you mean by "popular". In a diverse hobby such as ours (in a recent thread TMP link Extra Crispy said he had over 300 sets of rules!) any "popularity" of rules sets for newbies will be based on accidental reasons such as how they find out about the hobby, who they meet, and what a local group might be playing. There are probably lots of newbies who dive straight into "standard" rules without even testing the water with anything specifically designed for newbies.

I have played a great set of WWII scirmish rules that was a board game that I saw converted to miniature. The game was called Soldiers. Great set of rules!

Mike … disagree because of what I mean I think … take Unchartered Seas from Spartan Games … this has been picked up by a huge number of newbies and also gamers switching to the genre for the first time. This was not 'accidental' they obviously saw the hype, saw the product, saw it was just all there to pick up (the only real choice being which race to use) and went for it … maybe this is the key, it needs to be a new product with everything there so to speak so as to spark the interest and grab them in … I am still perplexed though!

"take Unchartered Seas from Spartan Games … this has been picked up by a huge number of newbies "

I presume you mean Uncharted Seas. As far as I can tell it has not gained much following at all in the UK. I've seen it mentioned here on TMP, but not seen it elsewhere.

And was it "designed specifically for newbies" or is it's appeal to newbies purely accidental?

Come to that is any wargame specifically designed for newbies? I'm aware of some cut-down or rules-lite versions of full games ( e.g. Rapid Fire for Rookies ( PDF link ) but not anything that is specifically for newbies.

Didn't Mongoose once have plans for a skirmish WW2 miniatures game with figs, scenery and rules in a box? That's the sort of thing that might work.

What I am wondering about is why there has never been a set of rules that has got very popular for 1:1 skirmish games, like say FOW for based company stuff.

It's the marketing and how it's presented.
What does FOW do? They sell figures. So instead of getting more people to play you get the people that play to buy more figures.
Has nothing to do with scale or rules.

I play Disposable Heros and Coffin for Seven Brothers. It may not be the very best set of rules but it certainly rewards good tactics and slams you pretty hard if you use bad ones. In addition, it doesn't take a lot of figures to have a good fun game.

"When you play skirmish with a squad of 8-10 guys with rifles and a LMG vs squad of 8-10 guys with rifles and a LMG, it gets pretty samey very quickly, sure you can up the numbers and introduce a few vehicles but after a couple of games you start to think "I've been here before"."

Try using scenarios.

I think Newbies come in different flavors, just like grognards. Some will quickly and easily pick up a game like NUTS! or Force on Force. Others won't. Some may be perfectly satisfied with a more "parlor game" approach to wargaming, while others will be turned off. Some will find lots of charts and details intriguing and want to delve into them, others will find them daunting and want no part of them.

Newbies aren't a different species. They're just us before we've gamed for a few decades. We all started out as Newbs and we probably weren't brought into the hobby by a game designed specifically with the perceived needs of the Newb market in mind.

There is no rules panacea. Trying to develop the ultimate, most broadly based wargame for world domination (not that I say that's what you're talking about Rich – I'm admittedly going off topic here) is just an other example of energetic windmill tilting. It might be satisfying to play at, but in the end no giants were killed.

Mike – UnSeas has a big following here in the UK where it is made … I don't mean the rules should just be made for newbies (FOW wasn't) but something that appeals – like THW ED says it is probably the marketing in general.

Caesar – that is a good point which again has been well handled by GW and Battlefront.

PDF link

"Mike – UnSeas has a big following here in the UK where it is made … "

Sorry, thought it was an American game. As for a "big following", maybe locally where you are, but where I am narry a sniff. Then again it all depends on what you consider to be a "big following". I would say that DBA and WAB (and possibly FOW) have a "big following". I'm afraid that Uncharted Seas is way below their level.

Certainly don't remember seeing anyone playing it at Salute this year. OTOH there were at least three games of Wings of War.

"Newbies aren't a different species. They're just us before we've gamed for a few decades. We all started out as Newbs and we probably weren't brought into the hobby by a game designed specifically with the perceived needs of the Newb market in mind."

Quite so.

Probably too soon for it to be too big at Salute – there were some demo games from a stand – also participations at Colours and will be at Gamesfest.

To be honest the most played/popular games are rarely that big at shows – anyway that is a side issue.

Drat Shaun (AAG) has caught me out – I am trying to find the formula for world domination of WWII skirmish games – oh dream on and keep doing the lottery! :-)

Caesar sez
"Try using scenarios."
Any other gems of wisdom?
FYI
I invested heavily in WWII skirmish a few years ago and I am on record as saying it was going to be the next big thing. (Boy did I get that one wrong)
And the reason my "group" now seldom play WWII skirmish is because after you have played any rules set a few times, the games, scenario or other wise are very samey.
Oh, and next time try a constructive comment instead of mouthing off about the gaming habits of someone you don't even know

"Probably too soon for it to be too big at Salute – there were some demo games from a stand – also participations at Colours and will be at Gamesfest."

So not really a "big following" then?

"Although I like TWAT"

(0_o) Okay, whatever this is it needs a better acronym. Seriously.

"It's the marketing and how it's presented."

Ed has it right. When I started to war game my friends and I wouldn't touch any rules set that didn't at least have a dozen or so full color pages and combat examples. We were attracted to the "shiny", pure and simple. Now we know better.

I too have been waiting a long time for 28mm WWII to get the pre-packaged, 'spoon-fed' treatment that 40K and FOW gamers have enjoyed for years. WaW and ROE are the closest to a 'user friendly' format a la' 40K that are lavishly illustrated aimed at newbies, but they don't nearly have as much room to grow. ROE had only one supplement, 'Operation Bagration to the Fall of Berlin' since its initial release a few years ago, and WaW only had open-ended support from A.D. Publishing. Mongoose was planning to do prepainted WWII figures for WaW before they scaled down their ambitions because their prepainted modern line for BFE flopped. Their vehicle scale, contrary to their claim, simply were too small compared to their infantry, which were on the smaller side as well.

There is definitely potential for this scale of WWII to take off if a company develops a set of nice skirmish rules that are well formatted and attractive (lots of color pics) in hardcover AND supports it with a nice line of plastic WWII figures and vehicles, with periodic new releases for different periods and theaters of WWII (like FOW). So far this hasn't happened, maybe because there's already an overglut of nice 28mm metal miniatures from Artizan, Warlord (BAM), Crusader, Victory Force, The Assault Group and Black Tree to choose from.

Mike stop being pedantic as always mate … just forget about the US comments then eh.

WW2 Fan – I think the plethora of cool figures works against us in a way. Multi part decent 28mm plastics and a pretty rule book would certainly do the trick one feels …

I've been working on these for the past year or so and they are very close to being ready to publish. Over the next few weeks I'll be laying them out for print and hope that they will be ready by December.

I can't promise they will be to everyone's taste – but then what is!

link

"Although I like TWAT"

(0_o) Okay, whatever this is it needs a better acronym. Seriously.

That's the whole point (there's British humour for you!!)

"There is definitely potential for this scale of WWII to take off if a company develops a set of nice skirmish rules"

There are any number of nice skirmish rules out there, looks aren't everything. Some are even free.

It needs--a big colourful rule book ,steady stream of supplements,associated range of figures,AND shelf space in Hobbycraft.Also helps if pushed hard in "Wargames Illustrated".
Not all successful rules necessarily do all of the above but I'm sure it helps.
I don't think any one WW2 skirmish set has managed to corner the market as we probably have too many diverse views on what we want from such a game.
Just a squad? Or platoon level?
What level of detail? What type of game mechanics are we comfortable with?
There was a time when I must have got hold of every WW2/Modern skirmish set going,in a vain pursuit of the Grail.

Mark – I imagine most people will at least want vehicles in a platoon level game … so probably not to many peoples taste mate… but selfless self promotion isn't helping with the answer to my question to be honest.

"It needs--a big colourful rule book ,steady stream of supplements,associated range of figures,AND shelf space in Hobbycraft.Also helps if pushed hard in "Wargames Illustrated"."

For heaven's sake, why? And who reads WI these days anyway, I can rarely find it in WH Smith's. Come to think of it, I haven't seen it in Smith's since BF took it over.

Its in the Enfield one always … never a great fan but it is slightly better now I think.The FOW stuff in it isn't as in your face as I imagined it would be either. Now when my WWII game dominates the world I'll buy a mag and ONLY have my stuff in it – JOKE!!!!

I personally think Battlefield Evolution: World at War by Mongoose is a good skirmish game – a Platoon a side with maybe a couple of tanks and some support weapons.

A game rather than a simulation – it plays well in a reasonable time and a few sensible house rules elevate it to something better.

It has an open licenece and the author has self-published vehicle packs which expand the game for most armies. Momgoose have also published a Pacific Theatre expansion themselves (and planes, which is an expansion too far IMO)

Oppposing forces react during the turn so it is not an IGOUGO system – which is nice

I don't understand why Mongoose has all the bad press – they have tried things competing against the mighty power of GW in the hobby – some things never worked out but all in I think they write pretty accessible and fun rulesets.

Available in print and also pdf format from Wargames Vault

Flying lead is coming from Ganesha games and though I intend to pick it up for modern and SciFi the idea of a couple of squads of WWII troops to use with it is very tempting.

Robert

Toaster – I wrote them :)
Still not going to be the WWII game to convert the masses though … although the idea is to pull in people to play different genres with them as you don't need many figures. There may be a WWII supplement for them at some point.

So are we in agreement it is just down to marketing and having the product THERE in entirety … easy feat to pull off then!

Damn!

I used a converted rule set from the standard 40K rules (based on two 40K releases ago). I had only played 40K, OGRE, WHFB, and some other games , but never a WW2 rule set.That was fun for some games, but had the very 40Kish/sci fi gamey feel that we got tired of quickly. We moved to Disposable Heroes for WW2 and have been playing them regularly ever since (4-5 years ago). I liked the skirmish level, easy to learn, quick play (2-3 hours for smaller games), clarity of rules, ease of play, and good on-line support. We've this rule set at many conventions and taught newbs in a 30-40 minute period, while playing. They pick them up fast and seem to enjoy the game, rules and period. Iron ivan publishes rules for other eras too, so the Disable Heroes rules are a starting point for the Spanish Civil War, WW1, Vietnam War, modern conflicts, and the French and Indian War. There are a number of scenerio booklets too, with more coming out. Still, it's basically a two/three man operation run part time.
But, the Disposable Heroes rules are black and white printing on the inside, and color covers. Not shiny and slick like GW stuff. It's nicely supported online, not the huge online international presence of GW and FOW. There is no miniature line that "goes" with it. You can order minis from Brigade games and other game shops and miniature companies. I don't know how WW2 games with the various rule sets, miniature co, scales, and various theaters of war, complexities of different armies, tanks, AFV, guns, could be simplified down to a GW level. Or dominate the market like GW has with sci-fi rules and miniatures. Maybe that's a good thing. Variety is the spice of life.

I don't understand why Mongoose has all the bad press

It might be having something to do with their reputation for a short attention span – starting and dropping new product ranges rather frequently.

(That said, many miniature wargamers suffer from equally short attention spans…)

i didn't mean to sound too boosterish re: Disposable Heroes. Although, I do enjoy the rules quite a lot. But there are plenty of good skirmish rules out there. So many gamers prefer differing game experiences, put 100 gamers in a room and you'll get 102 different opinions about the "best" game for WW2 skirmish. We can't have a GW type game co. dominate the WW2 skirmish market because it would require huge money resources, and we WW2 gamers are just too plain picky and hard to please (in a good way).

There will be one soon enough. NUTS!- Watch the support, marketing, boxed sets etc. coming down the pipeline.
Realistically, it will take two or three years of aggressive marketing, etc.

But watch, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I keep hearing rumors that Wargames Factory might be releasing a line of plastics in 28mm. Maybe THW can get the rights to their releases, one can only hope.

"but selfless self promotion isn't helping with the answer to my question to be honest."

Hmm – seeing as the title of the topic is 'Skirmish WWII rules for newbies" and thats what these happen to be, along with a range of supporting figures and supplements I thought it quite apt to point them out.

So, I think you may want to get off your high horse 'mate'.

Mark – that's what happens when you don't bother reading the initial post then … the mate bit was because I always thought we got on fairly well when you were developing and playtesting your rules with Neil from Spartan … obviously I was wrong.

It wasn't a hight horse it was just it is supposed to be a discussion of WHY the good rules we have out there have not taken off with the Newbies … not the normal list every rule set people play deal. Still don't see how you can get away without vehicles in a skirmish game of platoon level though – so no bocage 'one squad, one field, one tank' games , no panzer grens allowed etc …

Hi Rich,

Come off it – we do get on but your post was condescending. Either way I'll call it quits if you do :-)

Vehicles – the rules are not in the book because there is simply no space to do them properly, its already crammed. I can't afford to print a 128 page book so instead I'm putting them up on the web site as a free supplement.

As usual lots of intresting comment. My opinion is that the last thing on earth we want is over expensive, pointless coloured rule books (my £20.00 GBP 000 a yers licenced CFD code does not need coloure so why does a $20 USD RULE BOOK), and overpriced (40k)figures. In my opnion the trade is there to serve the gamer not to drive the games. Newbies should be introduced at their local club to everything even FOW, Rapid fire. It is their choice to be made by them, not even by me as I sort of class as "trade". Over dominance of the trade is not good. Rules over the last 40 years have got better. None of the inovation has not come from the likes of Warhammer (as they are commecial which limits investment) and not labours of love.

Skimish gamesa should not be samey. It proably means you do not have enough terrain. Two story builings shoud be diffrent to 3 story buildings tactically. Barbed wire, booby traps, Caverns, airfields. Raiding banks (kelly's heros), all are for the taking just lots of terrain. A village is fun but some recent studies by me indicate that now a minimum vilage for optimum fun is 15 houses using an MG mix, slightly bigger houses would require a few less as its about blocking LOS. This is critical even for newbies so they get an interesting game.

The thing Newbies want is a friendley face when they first turn up at a club more than anything else. Not a lots of over commecialise poor value stuff.

Mark – quits :-)
Seriously though I'd put that on the site as otherwise it will put people off I think … good luck with them.

UshCha – good points, but a majority of newbies are not going to turn up at the local club, in fact if under 16 we would have to turn them away. Most of them are going to have a mate go into a shop, see stuff and want to try it etc,

That's where the pretty rules come in – also I think it is funny when anyone doesn't think twice about spending hundreds on figures but moans about 20 quid for the rules to play them with – rules which take ages to make up et --- anyway that is another soapbox by itself :-)

For me, a lot of the appeal for playing skirmish is the scenario and the background to the scenario. To avoid the 'sameness' syndrome, it seems there should be lots of scenarios described in concise but vivid detail so there is some drama involved. The Squad Leader scenarios, even though they were for larger actions, always had interesting descriptions that made me want to set them up and see how I did compared to the historical events.
In addition to scenarios, I would also suggest a unit-based campaign where each player fields a specific unit of soldiers and has them fight through a series of scenarios. They could develop better skills, etc., as in Necromunda or Mordheim games but at a more realistic pace.
Games need to have 'color' in the rules and background, not necessarily on the pages, to appeal to new gamers.

Acharnement -- this is exactly what I mean. Surferdude pointed out that GW and BF have done something with scenarios. I don't know much about BF, but when I played GW 40K there were certainly a variety of generic scenarios that would provide the players with different situations. But even these were pretty bland after a while and we started making up scenarios that were more 'personal'.

Campaigns are a great way to get players more deeply involved. I don't really want to push any specific rules set, but as an example Nuts allows you to personalize your squad and add character to your games. Your guys can play in linked scenarios where they can either grow or shrink in ability, depending on the fortunes of war.

Ed -- "What does FOW do? They sell figures. So instead of getting more people to play you get the people that play to buy more figures."
I'm of a certain mind when it comes to this. Some rules exist to supplement a figure line, some exist to sell a figure line and some exist to be used with any figure line. I think that once you get into the realm of using rules to sell figures then your figure sales will dictate how you develop your rules. It boggles my mind that a set of historical rules will change to make certain models more useful because they aren't selling well, or because they are the latest big product push for the company.

fighting chef -- Did you really blow up at me over a useful suggestion?

It needs--a big colourful rule book ,steady stream of supplements,associated range of figures,AND shelf space in Hobbycraft.

Isn't this exactly what "Rules of Engagement" are trying to do. Big coloured rule book with painting guide, ready boxed unit deals of BAM fugures, paint sets etc. Doesn't seem to have caught on in the way that FOW has though.