"Jewish Revolt converted from Wargames Factory plastics" Topic

I was reading another thread on TMP:
TMP link
and CooperSteve was talking about using our 28mm hard plastic Numidians as conversion-fodder for Jewish Revolt (67-69AD) figures.

It gave me a "bug" to try this out – and add in some of the Ancient German parts along the way (I was going for the big, shaggy bearded heads – which may, in the end, not be all that historically accurate but I like the look!)

So here are my efforts. Maybe someday I'll actually PAINT them!

link

Thanks!

Tony

Tony Reidy
Wargames Factory
wargamesfactory.com

Damn you Tony! I have actually been thinking about trying something like that. Now, I have no excuse.

My Numidian infantry are going to be having a head and shield swap with the Celtic plastics and come out the far side as Ancient Spanish. If I can get my hands on some of the Immortal plastic Hoplites they may even end up as libyan spearmen.

Tony they look great!!

If I can get my hands on some of the Immortal plastic Hoplites they may even end up as libyan spearmen.

Have those been released yet?

Tony,nice job on the figures! When cancept Numidian cav? Mike Adams

Yes Tony, the Numidian/Generic Light cavalry would be great.

"…but you could do some clean-shaven Zealots for use as skirmishers…"

Eh? Zealots? Very Hellenized Jews, maybe.

Didn't we just have another "hairy" thread? Yes, we did:

TMP link

Ah, I see Steve's comment on Zealots dressed as women. My bet is that they were veiled, and anyone unveiling them would have gotten quite a surprise!

As Steve has correctly pointed out, Zealots were similar to modern Chasidim, and would have been on the conservative end of the hair spectrum. I bet they had tzitzit (fringes, worn at the corners of garments) under their feminine garb, too. (Not to be confused with tzitzim, which would be found on actual women under their garments…)

Allen

But are the figures circumscribed??

But are the figures circumscribed??

I believe you could put them on either round or square bases.

Waco – brilliant response!

So these tzitzit; I can see how that would work on a cloak. On a tunic, though, would you have a pair dangling on either thigh, where the corners of the tunic are joined? Or don't you have them on a tunic? We need a wargaming Rabbi here.

I still can't quite believe that there isn't a decent range of bigger 28mm minis specially designed for the Jewish revolt.

Simon

The tunic is made up of two rectangular cloth sheets, joined at their narrow ends with an opening left for the wearer's head. It seems that the sides of the garment were often left open instead of being tailored closed. No little sleeves, just hairy pits hanging out. The resulting garment has four corners at the bottom to hang tzitzit on.

See descriptions of Babata's Hoard in Yigael Yadin Bar Kokhba or elsewhere for examples of such textiles that were recovered from a cave near the Dead Sea.

Hi ZFN, thanks that is kind of what I was envisaging., although I'd forgotted about the cloak being open at the sides.

These tzitzit; you wouldn't want to be operating heavy machinery with them dangling around!

Simon

As the commentary here indicates, there were probably originally two forms of tzitzit: one which we would recognize as a "fringe", and the tassels or strings worn at the corners of a garment:

jrf.org/showdt&rid=395

You can find the former on the tallits (cloaks/shawls) of Maccabean figures, such as RAFM's and Newline's (they're teeny-tiny figures, Simon: you wouldn't like them), and these would still be suitable for use during the Great Revolt, IMO.

But as Rabbi Hirsh explains, as Jews sought to conform in appearance with their Gentile neighbors, they adopted ordinary clothing, and to meet the instruction of Torah, developed the tallit katan in order to meet this requirement when wearing everyday clothes:

link

If it isn't obvious, the tallit katan is worn nowadays under a normal shirt, but the tzitzit are left free, and are visible even under a jacket. Just go to Brighton Beach…

But it would be nice to see some figures with fringed tallits worn over the halluq tunic, such as in this modern reconstruction:

otim.org/Store/Tallits.htm

The combination could also be more voluminous, worn much as today, an Arab abaya is worn over a jellabiya.

Allen

Thanks Allen. I've noticed the first fringes you mention on the teeny weeny Newlines, and in the Armies and Enemies illustration.

Presumably they also have the unusual notched decoration on the corner of cloaks, and the stripes on the tunics.

I'm collecting potentially suitable/convertable minis; maybe next year…

Simon

I'm going to try to see if I can convert some of the numidians to be Maccabeans eventually. Not on the agenda this week though, unfortunately.

Stripes on the tunics are a bit of another AMPW-ism (although as we've seen from illustrations of thureophoroi, central vertical stripes on tunics were common--but then a lot of Ptolemaic thureophoroi were Jews!).

Blue or purple stripes would have been somewhat of a copy of priestly garments. But that doesn't necessarily rule them out. And stripes on the upper arms, as shown on that reconstructed tallit, would be an interesting variant.

I'd like to have some figures with a slightly longer tunic than those on the Numidians, if I were going to do conversions. But the short tunic will work, too.

Allen

So purple stripes are passe? IIRC the figures in Armies and Enemies have short sleeves, too, rather than slits as you've described.

Unfortunately the tunics on a lot of the WotG minis that I want to convert are cut rather short, too. It really does call for some enterprising manufacturer to design a proper range.

Would a Jewish thureophoros look any different to his gentile equivalent? Fringed cloak, perhaps?

Simon

Lots of options in tunic style. Zippyfusenet isn't wrong in describing the open-sided style--it's like the difference between the very similar traditional Greek chiton and a more tailored Roman tunica. Both of those would be worn in the Gentile world at the time, as well.

And short tunics are OK; I'd just like to see some longer ones.

I'm not sure how rigidly observant Diasporan Jews living in their Egyptian communities would have been, or how obervant those serving as mercenaries would have been, either.

That's not to say they weren't religious. Synagogues arose everywhere they went, and they kept some physical separation to be able to maintain religious requirements (occupying two of the five districts of Alexandria, for example). But just as the synagogues themselves show influence of local art forms, I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the strictures may have eased to be less conspicuous in exile. I could be wrong.

It's also interesting to note that many of the "Jewish" communities in Egypt were apparently mixed Jewish-Samaritan.

Anyway, that's my way of saying don't get hung up on too much strict interpretation of *any* references. One thing is certain: that througout history, Jews have adapted to life outside Israel--and may modern customs reflect those adaptations. So unless you're modelling various ultra-conservative types--and do we *really* know how they appared back then?--a little flexibility is called for.

Allen

There was an interesting paper I saw last year that IIRC suggested that a fair proportion of the Roman army in Judea may have been Jewish. Must dig it out. They couldn't have been all that religious in the Roman army!

I'll try to do the next unit of thureophoroi with some subtle Jewish "accents".

Cheers, Simon

Ya right Allen, a Zealot army could include figures in several styles of dress. I visualize Jewish Rebels as ragged, hairy fanatics at least partly because Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman were the wild-eyed Jews of my own generation, and that was their style.

Gone now: makes you feel old, doesn't it?

Allen

They never last long. For obvious reasons.

I met Allen Ginsberg once; does he count?

I guess the Psiloi would be more like Woody Allen? :)

"I still can't quite believe that there isn't a decent range of bigger 28mm minis specially designed for the Jewish revolt."

If you fund one I bet they will do it.
JJ

Hi JJ, I'm not quite in a fund-a-big-range place at the moment; but if I was, I think that would be the place I would go.

Imagine how many minis gamers would need to buy to get an army on the table! 300-odd unarmoured, shieldless figures, equipped, at best, with fruit-paring knives. And each unit could be a different faction; Judean People's Liberation Front (official), Popular Front for the Liberation of Judea, etc.

Has to be done…

Simon

I think if somebody came out with a siege of Jerusalem game like the old AH boardgame, then these figures would be quite in demand. The original Jerusalem game, not the one ruined by AH's mucking around, could actually be won by the Romans :)
(I've never seen the Romans get over the first wall in the AH version because they screwed up bowfire so much).
The Judean army needs buildings, or impassible terrain, and/or ambush, which is why they aren't common on the tabletop.
JJ

I had the AH version, sadly never played it and sold it many moons ago. Sounds like I didn't miss much!

The Judeans didn't do well in the field, but I'd give them a go, anyhow! Many of the figures could also be used as the earlier Maccabees, who had their moments. With all these Seleucids coming out, we need Maccabees, if only to be trampled by gargantuan elephants like my Empires.

I've always wanted to do sieges in Judea, too.

Simon

Allen Ginsberg had the hairstyle but lacked the fine fanatic gleam of devotion to cause that you saw in Leon Trotsky, Shabtai Zvi or Henrietta Szold. Psiloi could be physically modelled on Woody Allen, the younger Arlo Guthrie or Barbara Streisand as Yentl the Yeshiva Bochur, if you changed their rather laid-back and self-absorbed attitudes and gave them all a dose of real zeal.

I have Maccabee and Zealot DBA armies and appreciate that Judean revolutionary tactics amounted to:

1. Get on top of a big strong building, or a steep hill, or ideally, a big strong building on top of a steep hill.

2. Hurl rocks and verbal abuse at the militarily superior foe.

3. Confidently await favorable divine intervention.

Come to think of it, some things have changed very little in two thousand years.

Although…

Today a couple of Lubavitcher bochurim invited me to fulfill the mitzvah of hearing the shofar, the ram's horn trumpet that is still blown for New Year. And out of sentiment I agreed. The music was so stirring that I almost think, if the Zealots had enough of those trumpets, they might have won.

That must have been very atmospheric! Ram's horns; a Judean army would need lots of those.

I think your three-point strategy sounds about right!

Simon

Josephus paints the zealots as the scum of the earth; bad Jews. People who would desecrate the Temple wouldn't scruple about religious earlocks, garments- right?

Depends how much store you pay on his version of events, given the obvious biases. BUT it struck me, reading the JEWISH WAR how plausible his version is. I was struck by how similar the situation seemed to our more recent experience of occupied Iraq, with the 'oppressor' being removed & a multitude of local hardmen & factions emerging & clashing & doing pathologically horrible things to each other.

however on the other hand you could take the example of the Taliban setting great store by beard length etc in the name of religion while being cruel & hypocritical scrotes

I think a lot of people bypassed zealot armies when gaming was dominated by WRG or WRFG-style table clashes . For that, their appeal is limited, but their skirmish gaming potential is excellent.

Josephus gives several accounts of feats of individuals, fascinating reading.

"I still can't quite believe that there isn't a decent range of bigger 28mm minis specially designed for the Jewish revolt"

I can. Sketchy evidence for appearance, low demand hithertofore, many of the figures needed not particularly distinctive.

I'm intrigued looking at JUDAEA CAPTA coin images- some have a captive Jew in trousers. Is this just numismatic shorthard for 'captive barbarian ,they all look alike to us' (The figure has shaggy hair & beard like a classic German) or could it be more realistic? Judaeans had a lot of links with Parthian Empire Jews, would them adopting trousers at times be unlikely?

I suspect that if the Judeans had deployed a Praetorian guard, cataphracts or used pila, there would be plenty of ranges to choose amongst!

I personally wouldn't mind an army that was a poor performer as long as it was colourful, and I think this one could be.

link

For another source of looted kit for zealots- Herodian armouries

LOL; so Herod's army, at least, had a royal guard, armoured cavalry and possibly pila.

I already have that on pre-order; I am very much looking forward to seeing it.

Simon

Just looking at Monolith's city walls, both Holy Land & Egypt. Buildings useful too of course

They are nice but sadly, I believe Monolith are out of business.

Simon

Oh? Website still up!

link

I've got AH's SEIGE OF JERUSALEM. Only ever got as far as the Cestius Gallus scenario a couple of times- unwieldy beast. Would make great PC game tho! & the large full colour board makes a pretty good church teaching aid, I dug it out in a training session last week & got ooos & aaahs!

Monolith website live; Monolith not.

I can't find the appropriate thread, but IIRC he sold the Roman stuff to Warlord, and the rest is no longer in production.

Bummer!
The Herodian book is by the same guy who did the Judean Forts book, which is good, so the Herodian one will be worth looking out for…

I went ahead and created a special product – a Mash-Up – of the Ancient German and Numidian sprues to let you purchase Jewish Revolt figures in one shot. Check it out here:
TMP link

Thanks!

Tony

Tony Reidy
Wargames Factory
wargamesfactory.com

Tony, nice idea! You are always thinking and doing what the customer wants! A great job by you and your staff! Mike Adams

I've just ordered the BBC/DISCOVERY series Rome: The rise & fall of an empire off the BBC webshop for under £14.00 GBP This includes the episode Rebellion about the First Revolt, which is not bad at all for a TV docudrama- very few bum notes. (I'll be using it for teaching Sunday School!) There is also an accompanying book for just over £6.00 GBP

I assume there is a similar Discovery webshop for heathen Forn folk with outlandish DVD formats

Some scale armoured Zealots would be nice for captains or just lucky well equipped chappies. Unfortunately the nearest thing is lamellar-clad Assyrians- & the kilts & leggings are all wrong

link

Perry's Muslim civs from their crusades range seem worth a look for Jewish civs. The digger in pantaloons is not much use but extend the robes on both genders to nearer the floor to conceal the trousers & they're pretty neat?

Steve, there is a Spartan in one of the Foundry collections in scale armour, that might make a suitable Zealot Captain; would need a headswap if you want beardless, and a new shield.

link

(bottom left).

Cheers, Simon