"General Titus/fighting tribune figure?" Topic

Does anyone do a Roman Tribune in ornate armour in a fighting pose, mounted & unmounted? Specifically to represent Titus meleeing at Jerusalem.

I'm aware of various suitable models in more static poses

That would be a nice mini! I can't think of any, I'm afraid.

Simon

May have to sculpt one…

For the foot one, how about putting a different head on the GW Lorenzo Lupo figure? He's quite big, and has a general's sash:-

link

If it was Titus, I'd be inclined to give him an oval shield, even on foot, as he generally rode with the cavalry.

Simon

link

He has a sword drawn & a moving horse, shame he's helmeted, though that's not critical.

Depends on what you mean by ornate armour? I have seen several including Foundry, and Old Glory that are much like the Tribune in Simon's link.
VR
James Mattes

I don't think the Warlord mini above is exactly their finest hour, sculpting wise.

There is also the Saleh Caesar Figure from WF, which would perhaps need a headswap to a helmeted head (and swordectomy) to become Titus:-

link

Maybe the Gordon Marcus Calvinus could be converted?

Simon

Josephus says Titus lacked the protection of a breastplate in the incident when he & a handful of mounted companions were trapped by a rush of Jewish fighters outside Jerusalem. I take this to mean he was wearing parade armour which while flash was actually not much use if one of those cross Hebrooz had aimed a javelin straight. (Easier to find tribunes in pretty armour than mounted Roman with sword in just tunic & cloak too!? )

Also looking at the Jewish sally where Titus held the seige line

Hi Steve,

Who are you using for the Hebrews?

Ralph

WARGAMES FACTORY plastic Numidians. With peot added in putty

It struck me the WARLORD tribune looked dodgy but wondered if it was unfortunate painting/photography. Anyone seen it in the metal?

What's a peot?

I have a pile of Foundry Spartans and World of the Greek peltasts, that I hope will one day serve as Jewish revolutionaries. Some of the new Polemarch figures would mix in nicely, too.

Simon

Peot is plural, & refers to the locks of facial hair hanging down from the sideburn areas. As it relates to a command in torah not to cut the corners of the beard it is distinctively jewish & is a good way to make generic ancients look like Jewish rebels…

Chasisim/ultra-orthodox Jews still wear them, so not hard to find reference. Conolly depicts them in LIVING IN THE TIME OF JESUS OF NAZERETH (which everyone interested in gaming 66-70 AD should have in their library anyway.)

Look for the variant 'payot' & you'll find a wiki page

Fascinating. I'd assumed that was a much later custom; I've not got that Connolly (although I have several others), clearly I need to pick it up.

Cheers, Simon

You would not be wrong, Simon; the modern interpretations of peyot are just a few hundred years old, and are not universal throughout Judaism:

link

link

You may note that according to Maimonides, I am observant in this matter, as I only use scissors:

allensarmies.blogspot.com

(Having pork adobo for dinner last night was probably not observant, however.)

The specifics of how observant Jews may dress their hair involves many centuries of discussion, argument, and opinion. The basic law is in Torah, but the details of interpretation have swung widely back and forth over time, and have been dependent on place and the greater society as well.

Many Jews of the time of the Jewish Revolt would have been quite thoroughly Hellenized in appearance, including being closely shaven and tonsured (permissible if frequently in contact with the occupying government). And others would have been more conservative.

Among those who would conceivably not cut their hair at all were those who had taken vows as (opening can of worms) nazirites. But they would have been unlikely to have been present at battles, due to the prohibition against being in the presence of corpses.

There were exceptions: centuries earlier, Sampson was a nazirite, and seems to have failed at keeping his vows, having touched corpses and having drunk wine. Another well-known Jew was almost certainly a nazirite, given his frequently misunderstood appellation. How he squared the nazirite prohibitions with wine-making and corpse-raising--good Hellenistic wonder-worker miracles for the CV--is unclear.

Punic pikemen. That's all I'm saying about that.

Allen

Hi Allen,

Even more fascinating! It sounds like Wikipedia may be being a bit too definite about implying their existance in ancient times. More to the point, it means a little less conversion work if I ever get around to painting my (long projected) Jewish army… Clearly the Spartan figures I have earmarked for it will be nazirites.

BTW great to see you have a blog; I shall be following your pikemen with interest.

Cheers, Simon

I don't read the Wikipedia entry on "payot" as saying very much definitive before modern times:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payot

A lot of customs--although credited "since time immemorial"--are actually fairly recent.

That entry links to this, which is perhaps more informative on ancient usage (but it is still Wikipedia!):

link

Allen

It struck me the WARLORD tribune looked dodgy but wondered if it was unfortunate painting/photography. Anyone seen it in the metal?

I have him and the answer is yes and no.

From a sculpting POV it is a ice mini (both the dismounted and the mounted versions). It is clean, the details are crisp (the head and helmet on the monted one are the exceptio here).

BUT… they do not like leaders of men for some reason… for sure not someone I wold have loved to follow into combat. The mounted one seems a little too well fed. And both do not convey any energy, motivation or power. To me the look more like pampered pups from a senatorial family. Which most Tribunes were, but still not what you want on your tabletop.

Cheers,

Burkhard

The 'Jesus the Nazirite' seems to be based on the 'Jesus had long hair' myth.

seems Jews were taking same torah passage literally in 2nd temple era & using tephillin so not improbable growing long sideburns too?

Wouldn't give all Jewish figures them anyway

Conolly is very akin to god so if he draws it, probably true. ;/)

Don't worry, won't give 'em black coats & furry hats

Tho' massed Lubavitchers vs. Roman legion would look kewl.

Has there been any more thought/discoveries on whether segmented armour was being used in the east at this time?

They found some at Masada, so I think it's a safe enough bet.

Kewl! That makes life easier

Just read Allen's shaving link… fascinating, but does illustrate the sort of hair-splitting (pun not intentional, but welcome!) that gives Orthodox Judaism a bad name.

Of course, Josephus says the zealots went round Jerusalem looting & killing dressed as women, so I guess they weren't very observant of halacha

Bought the JUDAEAN FORTS Osprey at the weekend- it's good, nice photo reference to the Holyland Hotel model (I'm blessed in owning a copy of the site's own brochure with lots of pretty pics, having been there. 1/50 stone model of Jerusalem in modern Jerusalem)

The walls of Jotapata were low & easy to depict, shame they were built up a steep slope, just when you thought you had something easy to terrain model!