"Why D6?" Topic

Why don't more wargame rules use percentage dice instead of d6s? Seems to me that if you have x that wants to shoot, or melee y that they have a basic percent chance to succeed. We used to play the Runequest/Basic Role-playing/Cthulhu system which uses percentages. 25% to strike and 10% to parry as an example. There weren't any saving rolls. Two dice rolled once. Two Hour Wargames uses 2 D6 similarly. I'm not criticizing, just wondering.

Accident of history. When recreational wargaming was first popularised in the '60s, the only dice available were D6s.

Lots of wargaming rules use 'buckets of dice' to resolve combat. Such a mechanic is much easier to resolve using dotted D6's. Imagine rolling 12 D100 and quickly counting the hits vs. a target number. It's just unwieldy.

Cheap and easy to find; and if the designer can do his stats no less accurate.

If your taste runs to single-roll resolutions the range of outcomes can be an issue. I don't mind D10 but tend to balk at more sides. If you need to roll 2 dice (for full percentages) you probably could do well enough with base 6.

Some designers fall for the apparent precision of percentages, then forget that probabilities in general are determined by multiplication of factors, not addition and subtraction.

It might be interesting to compare the speed at which people can comprehend the outcomes of various dice rolling procedures. I'd bet that procedures involving six sided dice will tend to have an advantage over D10 and D20. Any psych majors out there? I'd be surprised if no-one has done any sort of work on it.

I tend to agree with the original poster. In life I often think in terms of percentages, I never think in terms of D6s. In gaming, I find that rules that use D6s often have too narrow a range of results to meet the needs of the system. Sometimes this is overcome by modifiers, or other mechanisms, such as multiple rolls to achieve a final result for a simple action. This makes the rules more tedious. Generally I find myself thinking "This would have worked better using D10s".

For whatever it is worth, I do avoid systems that use D6s.

Accident of history. When recreational wargaming was first popularised in the '60s, the only dice available were D6s.

D6 is probably the easiest type of dice to manufacture, which probably explains its historical spread.

Dice other than D6 are neither "more accurate" nor "more precise". They are merely a reflection of the biological fact that we have more than 6 fimgers and toes, and that there are regular polyhedra with those number of faces. Notthing more.

You can PRETEND that they are more accurate or precise, and you would be wrong, but if you want to think so, go right ahead.

Commercial game designers use d6 because they are commonly available to those who buy game rule books. Purely a business decision. If they adopt a d10, d20 or other dice size, a certain percentage of buyers will grumble online about having to buy special dice. Use a d6. Avoid the problem.

Like many tinkers and non-commercial game designers, I prefer the mathematical advantages of dice larger than a d6. I have recently been pleased with the results given by opposing d12 combat resolution rolls.

I find the problem to be that it is harder to do gradations in a bucket of d6 system. THese guys shot a little better so they get +1 to shoot. THat modifier may double the chance of a hit from 1/6 to 1/3. If you say yes but a d10 will double in the same circumstances you go from 1/10 to 1/5 only a 10% jump rather than 16.7% jump. D10 allows more room to throw in modifiers if you are so inclined. The best d6 rules I have seen recently is GW War of the Ring, which resolves in one die roll. Modifiers change the number of dice rolled, so a +1 modifier might have a base roll 9 dice rather than 8 dice.

d6 have been used for millenia.

The percentage dice-based systems became popular in the 1970s, when we were all pretending that we were engaged in a serious simulation exercise rather than just playing toy soldiers.

In theory it gave a wider variety of possibilities.

In practice it meant that designers were tempted to give us that "+2% for the better balance on the 1882 mark IV model" and a long list of similar modifiers.

We squinted at a lot of tiny charts to see what our die roll of 46 meant this time – surely different to the last time we rolled a 46.

My own designs have used D6s alone since the middle 80s.

Just ask yourself this: If I can roll eight dice looking for sixes, or look at a chart that says I have 133% chance of hitting – that is, one hit automatically and a 33% chance of getting a second – which process will feature more excitement? More tension? More fun?

If you answer in favour of the second process, you are probably an accountant.

It probably has something to do with the "big buckets of dice thrown" syndrome, which I happen to enjoy, BTW>

To the speed of recognition (spotting pips on d6s) mentioned above I would add the "don't think, roll" advantage of d6s to speedy play: I used to run my various barroom brawls with percentages, but found that the players spent too much time pondering and weighing the value of this or that modifier/action --switching to d6s made the games go faster and created a greater level of excitement, imo, that was more suited to the action on the table.

In can't imagine it takes more than a few milliseconds more, if any at all to read a D10, D20 or a D100 result, than a D6 result.

Generally, I prefer more granularity in my outcomes.

I would prefer throwing fewer dice in my games so I like charts or dice beyond the D 6. Usually I am noted for hewing to tradition but the D 6 gives little satisfaction Yes, I would much rather have a 133% chance of a hit than to throw multiple dice multiple times and get no hits as I did yesterday. We should aspire to simulation even if we are only playing games with toy soldiers IMHO.

irishserb: Generally I find myself thinking "This would have worked better using D10s".

Amen.

I don't mind polyhedral systems, as I can do math pretty well, though some players don't do it as well as me and that can be an issue.

It does seem to me percentile dice (2 different colored D10s rolled to simulate 01 – 100) take longer to read however. I'm also not thrilled at a game system that supports such small increments as that means sooner or later we'll be doing the bookkeeping for them.

Percentile dice however are handy for making up big charts of random selections, like D&D magic item charts.

What is more natural and easy to make than a square/cube?

They get cocked far less easily/often than any other die shape (other than clunky d4, that is).

2d6 is arguably all the divergence you need to obtain a spectrum of results; and the increment is only 2.8%; it forms a nice bell curve of probability.

You can throw a batch of matched pairs for quick group results….

Commercial game designers use d6 because they are commonly available to those who buy game rule books.

I think this argument would make more sense if the same games did not involve obtaining miniatures that are not always so easily available.

Or at least for me it is easier to obtain a bunch of D10 than a bunch say of 15mm Zapotec slingers (I guess those 40x15 mm bases can always be homemade, so the availability is not really an issue for them).

Easy, familiar, cheap, common and

for most game systems (but not all) they have a sufficient range without becoming too random in outcome.

I have long preferred d10 for my activity charts whether you are using 2 x d10 for percentile or one d10 for a 1/10 chance.

However some people like d6 so much, that I often do combat and activity charts capable of using both, one for the d10 and a seperate set for d6.

As a game designer I can only say that the bell curve of multiple D6 is a thing of sheer beauty, whereas the straight line of percentage dice is both dull and (worse) boring.

I would rather eat a dead cat than use percentage dice in one of my rule sets.

cube dice have existed for thousands of years

polyhedral dice somewhat less long

My incomplete list of completely new miniature games catching my attention released since Jan 1, 2007…

Impetus
Song of Blades and Heroes
Ancient and Medieval Wargaming
War of the Ring
Sharp Practice
Lost Battles
Crusader Historical Miniatures
various Two Hour Wargames
DBMM
Field of Glory
Confrontation

Only 1 does not use a d6 for combat resolution (Crusader). Go back to the mid-80's and it was not so lopsided. Shareware and freeware wargames are not as clearly dominated by d6 mechanics.

People like the d6. Over the years those selling games have become better at understanding what people want.

We tend to prefer d10s in our games as we feel the d6 does not offer enough granularity.

Some people in this thread have pointed out you can achieve a nice level of granularity with a 2d6 roll. That is true.

However, that mechanic is cumbersome when rolling multiple instances of 2d6 simultaneously. It requires multiple sets of matching colored dice, or that each 2d6 roll be rolled sequentially – which could greatly increase the length of the game turn.

In addition, as a previous poster pointed out. 2d6 provides a bell-shaped distribution. If you want a flat distribution – using a single die – you only have 6 possible outcomes, instead of 10.

Thus, the d10 can do everything the d6 can do, but allows for far greater granularity on a single die roll as well as the option of the percentile dice for games that require it.

The only real drawback of the d10 is that they are less common and some people, for whatever reason, just don't like them.

The other advantage to the d6 is you can raid all your board games (Monopoly, etc) for more dice. I did this a long time ago to play Shadowrun.

Though to be honest, I prefer to play games that resolve with a d10.

Percentage dice vs. a d10 or a d20? Need to be clear on that.

If you're just going with 10% or 5% differences, then roll a lone d10 or a lone d20, respectively.

If you're actually breaking results down into differing increments of less than 5%, I think you're getting absurdly, even obsessively, detailed. Do you really need to know whether the result is 22% instead of 23%? Really?

As for myself, I tend to favor d6 because they're conveniently available, but I do at times like the "granularity" of a d10 or d20; whatever works for a given situation. In the end, as long as the game is fun, the dice are of little importance.

A large number of people do not like to mix dice in the same game…

TMP link

I have two favourite companies for the rules I use, Two Hour Wargames and Ambush Alley Games … one uses straight d6 and only about 5 or 6 of them, the other uses up to 10 d6, d8, d10 and d12 … also play Ganesha Game rules which only really uses one d6 at a time … all work better than any other rules I have come across for me and there is no problem switching between systems etc.

Anyone who mentioned cost is right on target. Availability is another one. I can get dice (cubes with dots) pretty much anywhere and for cheap. I have to drive ten miles to the nearest hobby shop to find anything else, and they're a lot more expensive. Plus there's something slightly unsettling about being the only adult in the place who goes anywhere near that grubby bucket on the counter.

What Doug said.

cube dice have existed for thousands of years

polyhedral dice somewhat less long

The British Museum has Roman d20s and other sorts. They've been around for thousands of years too.

link

For single dice I prefer somewhat more than 6 sides, maybe less than 20. D10s are about right. But what I really prefer in most gaming is a 2d6 bell curve.

d10 and d6 appear to be the most popular dice sizes for miniature wargamers…

TMP link

Interesting. . after "No Preference" on dice. . . the next most popular selections were

d10 20%
d6 12%

Despite being a d10 man myself. . . I would have expected those numbers to be flipped.

Look more carefully. There are multiple d6 options. Not a very scientific poll, but interesting.

"There are multiple d6 options"

Still only adds up to 18%

The way this poll was constructed, 18% is a large result. (And 50% larger than 12%.)

I think the proper way to read these results are thus…

Few gamers prefer d4, d8, d12, or d30 dice in game mechanics. As a game designer you will catch grief for basing mechanics on dice such as these. See Phil Fry's comments regarding using a d8 at TMP link

d20 systems and percentile dice systems are preferred by some miniature wargamers, however d6 and d10 systems are the most popular of those expressing a preference. More research would be required to distinguish the relative popularity of d6 and d10 systems, but the old poll does reveal a preference for these two dice sizes.

Even the best funded scientific poll has a margin of error of roughly plus/minus 3%. The referenced poll is also murky as percentile dice systems often rely on d10's. Do people like the dice size or the 1% granularity?

Another interesting question might be, "If the d20 is popular among RPG gamers, will a wargame utilizing such a dice attract former RPG players?"

In polling for market research, preference is not the only factor. Negatives are also considered. Other polls and comments made in this thread suggest that the d6 does not have as many people who are adverse to the dice size as mixed polyhedral dice ( TMP link TMP link ). It may not be a gamer's preferred dice size, but a d6 does not keep people away from a game.

Here's what I think…

85% of gamers don't give a flip what dice are used.

About a third of gamers prefer to use a single sized dice for all game mechanics, but don't care what size.

At least a third of new wargamers are intimidated by polyhedral dice.

About 5% to 10% of wargamers snub games unless they strictly use a d6, the way God intended. (A disproportionate number of these are older gamers.)

Among experienced wargamers (mostly in that 85%), many (50%) have developed moderately strong, but flexible, preferences for d10 systems, percentile systems, or d20 systems.

No one (statistically insignificant) who prefers non-d6 polyhedral dice will refuse to game a strictly d6 game.

Personally, I will use any dice. I am not adverse to mixing dice within the same game. I am fine with any polyhedral dice in any quantity. I enjoy some d6 only games and find some dull.

Financiers for commercially produced games correctly worry about new wargamers intimidated by polyhedral dice.

Just my 2% of a dollar.

D6 rattle about in the cup of your hand in a much more satisfactory manner than any of the polyhedra dice. I realized this after 15 years of home grown rules with mixed percentile dice, d12, and so on. I started playing a game that was all d6 and realized what I'd been missing…

Odd, but a few other wargamers have noticed the same thing.
--
Tim

Because if you tell me I need a 6 to hit, I'm fine with that and the game goes on.

If you tell me I have a 27% chance to hit, then I need to know why. Why not higher? A debate erupts about this-that, and so on.

And that is why the d6 rules the world.

John the OFM
Dice other than D6 are neither "more accurate" nor "more precise"…..snip….
You can PRETEND that they are more accurate or precise, and you would be wrong, but if you want to think so, go right ahead.

Which reminds me of the great laugh when Runequest came out and everyone raved about it's more accurate combat system because it used %dice rather than D&D's "silly D20 roll".

Only the combat skills went up in 5% increments – so a 75% skill was the same as a 15+ die roll on a D20. Oh, the endless arguements trying to explain this…..usually ending up with responses along the line :

"But on these speakers it goes up to 11"