"Ancient ImagiNations" Topic

I was wondering if anyone has done this sort of thing for ancients, and which seems to be so popular for the 18th century?

If so what sort of problems, and rewards did they find?

Tony Bath. 'Hyboria'

nuff said

I vaguely remember the Hyboria articles that were published in the old Battle magazine. Sadly after all these years I only have two issues left. One of which had a Hyboria article in it.

I am looking at doing something like this with an old fantasy world (probably dumping the fantasy component though) currently at karnorthe.skaran.net

This ancient imagi-nation blog was started as spin-off of the Emperor vs Elector blog for 18th Century.

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Jim

See also Robert E. Howard.

Allen

We did it a long time ago with Greyhawk Wars – just made each state a historical army. We had some magic rules to give it some flavour, but it could easily be made into a giant pseudo-historical game world. In fact, it's something I'd like to do over again. I think we made the Great Kingdom something decadent and nasty like Romans, and the rest followed on from there…

Paul

Could be cool!
If you mix the technology, and tactics to keep some surprises!

I like to throw Libyan amazons into my Ancients gaming just to throw everyone off a little… the archaeological evidence is very scany, but anytime I can fiels a force of naked babes in a historical contest is a vicitory before the game even starts in my book.

Numbians.

Isn't this called a DBM open tournament?

I've been pondering doing a Medieval Imagi-nation, but it would stay within a limited historical technological framework. I have no interest in Roman legions vs. Medieval knights etc.

I've toyed with doing something like this using the Empires of the Petal Throne line from Eureka, probably with the Field of Glory of rules. Both factions currently out would work as interesting armies, though I'd need cavalry and skirmishers. I could use Meso-americans as light troops, would likely have to convert cavalry.

-Will

Isn't this called a DBM open tournament?

Not just DBM tournaments, just about any ancients open tournament no matter what rules are used.

With the 18th Century there were a lot of similarly dressed and equipped armies. One of the problems that an ancient imaginary nation scenario might suffer from is that a lot of ancient cultures looked distinctive. Ancient Spanish looked quite different from Celts or Etruscans, for instance.

I think that you would want to choose a setting where a lot of different states used similarly dressed and equipped troops. The Successors spring might work, as would JamesonFirefox's medieval suggestion or perhaps hoplites.

I don't really have a problem with differing uniform styles, most were a reaction to the climates they were raised in. Substituting modified versions of real cultures for the ones in my notes (some of which are on the website mentioned above) I get a picture of early Romans for Acsynae and Morchainti (The Empire of the Petal Throne figures look good for these with perhaps a small amount of "oriental style" cavalry). Perhaps Persian or perhaps Hittites for Pathe with Mongol neighbours (the Krizak). Gorgrin Tuvess is matriarchal so perhaps some nice Amazons from Eureka. Veslare is more primitive so Sumerians with decent chariots. Salkasan more Celtic, Torthen Ty Taros Alexandrian Macedonian and Nuril, Norse. On other parts of the continent there are asian style nations.

Indeed Tony Bath's Hyboria may antedate P. Young's Electorate of Teutoberg-Althaufen and C. Grant's Vereinigte Freie Städte.

Yet the (Western European) mid-18th C. is specially propitious to imaginary countries and armies on several points, mainly:
-regarding fictional countries, the historical existence of the 300+ states and statelets of the Empire: one doesn't feel like committing a sacrilege by adding a pair to the mix -less than 1%;
- regrading armies in 'unhistorical' uniforms, all armies wore tricorns and uniforms of -at first glance- the same cut: most commercial minis are thus 'generic', and your army in uniform colors of its own will look 'right', credible as an original entity, not as bunch of 'diverted' minis painted in silly colors. A great advantage over both the Napoleonic and the Ancient times, when each and every country / culture had its own, immediately recognizable dress pattern.

Then the Ancient (-Medieval) era saw the confrontation of different civilizations, and this precedent is propitious to fictional settings. When different *civilizations* enter contact, each is at its own level of technological progress. In our real world, Amerindians of early copper age -barely equivalent to Ancient Kingdom Egyptians- faced Renaissance (according to 'our' calendar) arquebuses; 'Victorian' Zulus were, technically, an Ancient army. Thus the intellectual 'difficulty' with Agincourt knights facing Roman legionaries is NOT in the 'chronological as technological' discrepancy per se -far worse occurred historically- than the fact that they are too immediately identifiable as their historical prototypes. Which raises the problem of the miniature soldiery.
In the good old late "70, Minifigs did no less than 5 (five!) specialized ranges: unlicensed Middle Earth, unlicensed 'Conan' (with transparent names such as 'Khojans' for 'Khorajans'), Greyhawk (+the D&D range almost without humans), Valley of the 4 Winds, Aureola Rococo. Some minis were really good and original.
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Garrison did also a 'Sword & Sorcery' range with numerous 'unacknowledged' Conan types:
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and Ral Partha had a (licensed?) Royal Armies of the Hyborian Age range:
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Their 'Wizards, Warriors and Warlocks' range was 'unlicensed Tolkien'.
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(Rohirrim, however they may be called, are generally good, useful minis).
Then when some 30 years ago our group played our own attempt of a Tony Bath-like 'Hyborian' campaign, one of us fielded *Elves* as the army of an 'human' country -mainly Ral Partha of the Fantasy Collector Series:
link They were *great* and, seen en masse on the tabletop, passed for humans without difficulty.

Nowadays a very few ranges are available, manufactured for fantasy games: Tolkienesque humans, the armies for Tekumel, Eureka's Amazons (great cataphracts, according to the pics). Of course 'generic' or converted minis can complete the armies -some on the web did great jobs for the armies of Glorantha (Runequest), e.g.

Howard, when designing the 'Hyborian' background of Conan the Barbarian, made good use of the main characteristic of Ancient warfare -the confrontation of different *civilizations*, each following its own timetable. Thus he set the precedent for most subsequent 'fantasy medieval' "worlds", with obvious copycats of historical countries each at its 'right' location but from a different time: medieval Europeans in the center, Vikings to the North, Mongols to the East, Saracens-cum-Beduins-cum-Tuaregs to the South-East, (living or fossil) Pharaonic Egyptians to the South the Black Kingdoms, pre-columbian Amerindians far to the West across the water…
Such kind of setting has much potential, and is used e.g. by the fictional Ancients 'collective blog' homologous to the 18th C. ''Emperor vs Elector'.

The 'Lace Wars' (Western European warfare by the WAS ± 15 years) and the Ancient times are the exact opposite, wargaming-wise. The simplest of army composition (and potentially of rules) and armies looking like mirror images except for the dyes of the cloths and the flag patterns, vs a bewildering diversity of troop types, formations, weaponry, levels of protection and costumes. But both are specially propitious to 'imaginary' campaigns, in their own way: Ancient-Medieval times with the possibility to pair *any* two armies from 3500 BC to 1500 AD worldwide -and later from 'exotic' areas, down to Victorian Zulus- as opponents.

I suspect that technology differences didn't become critical until later than you might think. If I recall, the Vinland Saga described a skirmish between Vikings and the stone age Native Americans. I seem to remember that the Vikings had 2 killed and the Native Americans lost 4 killed. The Vikings decided to abandon the colonisation of North America because they feared the effects of attrition in skirmishes with the inhabitants.

With regard to historical precedents "smoothing the way" to Imagi-Nations, against the single 18th C. one -the multiplicity of obscure German countries- two can be put forward for Ancients:
-the 'shock' of civilizations of widely disparate technological level: the very same Roman legionary, transferred from a border to another, could face successively barbarians extremely short in metal, the cataphracts totally encased in armor. Thus it is not 'sacrilegious' to have *the equivalent of* Burgundian compagnies d'ordonnance fielded against *the equivalent of* Sumerians. And as mentioned above, such differences do not make unbalanced games.
-the multiplicity of OOB: hundred, perhaps thousands of the possible combinations of dozens troop types were historically used, so it is not 'sacrilegious' to design your own -provided you come with a credible, solid background to justify it. Otherwise, hundreds are depicted in detail e.g. as army lists, for you to pick the one most appealing to your taste.

What may be somehow hindering is the 'equivalent of' reservation: one may feel embarrassed by a so-called 'original' army blatantly made of obviously 'historical' minis painted 'unhistorically' -the reverse of the Lace Wars 'generic' / 'anonymous' tricorn and cut of the uniforms. Limited conversians can do marvel to change the 'look' of the soldiers, see Lunars there: gloarmy.free.fr

Then, some mutually agreed conventions may increase freedom: when, more for the fun of it, we did some 'historical' games with our Hyborian armies, my bare-breasted javelinwomen Amazons 'counted as equivalent to' Egyptian spearmen (unarmored, short spear), then Assyrian ones (armored, short spear), then Early Imperial Roman legionaries (armored, pilum), then some Late Imperial types (unarmored, javelin)….

Well I've got hold of a set of Eureka's Petal Throne First Legion of Ever-Present Glory spearman unit. Very nice figures they are too. I will need some cavalry to go with them of course so am looking for a range that will not be too disimilar in style (any ideas?)

The First Legion of Ever-Present Glory is encased in heavy scale armor: Chinese / Tibetan cataphracts would probably be the best match (adding a 'quasi ancient Greek / Hawaian crest on the helmet for increased similarity?). Then if you can bend the background so that for some cultural reason the cavalry is restricted to women, the Eureka Amazon cataphracts look nice.

How about a matriarchal society, only ruling nobles may ride warhorses hence only women cavalry riders. The rank and file (ie infantry is lower status and hence both male and females can serve on foot. Also allows the use of the Amazone chariots for the same reason. So I could make Gorgrin Tuvess matriarchal/matrilineal (its currently listed as having a bilateral structure) This gives a nice foil to the Morchainti Empire which being loosely based on Rome would be strongly patriarchal/patrilineal.

I have participated in Tony Bath's Hyborian campaign together with Charlie Tarbox, Richard Borg and other reknowns of the SOA. Great fun.

In recent past, I believe Rudi Geudens has continued carrying the Hyborian banner.

As sume have mentioned, HOTT does have army lists and a campaign system to pick up were Tony Bath left off. Pleny of material and maps, so why not start your own?

cheers,
Robert

@ skaran: a nice, original setting indeed.
Maybe, with time, it will reach the 18th C. -with a background so different from 'ours' for millenia, it could be… surprising.
(Yet 'normal' Lace Wars minis would be *basically* usable, if your continent is located on the same 'Earth' as, say, the 'Emperor vs Elector' setting, and knew a period of conservatism: modern Chineses and Japaneses largely follow 'European' fashion.)
I heard years ago of a wargamer intending to 'push' the RPG world of Harn to the SYW.

I like the SYW period as well and am currently painting up some Austrian/German battalions to go with the Saxon cavalry.

Still lots to do on the setting, currently mapping around the south eastern side of the Sea of Shareale. (Plus of course trying to decypher my own handwriting!)

@ skaran: Austrian/german, but what about Gorgrin Tuvess and the Morchainti Empire 'in tricorns'? Unfortunately the cuirassiers of the Eureka 'Sandra' "female SYW" range are not yet available…
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You know that's not a bad idea at all but I would need those Female SYW figures.

Morchainti incidently turns out to mean something like "shadow or ghost shapes" in one of Tolkiens languages so Austrians might make a good fit there,

I also seem to remember that in the original incarnation of the world there were two small land locked nations called Wesse and Enwesse whose names certainly give a 7YW feel.

Then see you in the 'Emperor vs Elector' group emperor-elector.blogspot.com -the 'League of Lace Wars Imagi-Nations' TMP link -and / or in the Australain 'Fortress' link when Eureka at last starts selling the SYW female cuirassiers!
Cheers,
Jean-Louis

Well I may end up doing both periods since I have figures covering both the 7YW and assorted ancients and I am of course totally insane:}

You are already developping the map and ancient history of your Imagi-Nations: to explore the future of your brainchild would just be securing an additional return from your investment!