"FoW: This is too embarrassing! And funny! But scary too." Topic

Some of us have been engaged in discussing the growth of FoW fanboys, and what that all means. There's been a lot of migration of younger players from GW and Privateer to FoW, and for me it's been hard trying to get them to understand that history plays a part in the game, a crucial part in fact. I've even been known to say that BF has an obligation to ensure these kids get to know the history behind WW2.

However talking to some of my peers I've started to think I'm too hard on these kids, and also had a bee in my bonnet about the whole MWM/WW2.0 nonsense.

Then I saw this post on their forum.

link

I hope that those who thought I was just a grumpy old man (at 35) can see the issue I was trying to highlight.

Says I have to register….:-(

Yep… I don't wanna register either.

And nor should you fine gents.

Here's the post:

"In FoW you have Axis and Allied forces.

Most people out there now that the Allies we called the Allies because they formed an alliance to defeat the Axis.

Does anyone else know why the Axis powers were named the Axis?

This is a critical element to all developed scenarios presently used by Battlefront. In fact, the very base of all the rules would fade without this knowledge.

So, any theories or answers?"

sumary – someone wanted to know why the Axis was the Axis.

In fact, the very base of all the rules would fade without this knowledge.

It is hard to know whether they are taking the michael or are seriously…er……ignorant!

Thanks for posting what was said. Like I mentioned in the other thread you posted about this. Im not a member nor do I want to become one to read what you linked to :( LOL. But why aren't I suprised about the statements and questions made LOL. Robert

I cheated,

In November 1936, the term "axis" was first officially used by Italian dictator Benito Mussolini when he spoke of a Rome-Berlin axis arising out of the treaty of friendship signed between Italy and Germany on 25 October 1936, around which the other states of Europe (and of the world) would revolve. This treaty was forged when Italy, originally opposed to Nazi Germany, was faced with opposition to its war in Abyssinia from the League of Nations and received support from Germany. Later, in May 1939, this relationship transformed into an alliance, which Mussolini called the "Pact of Steel".

The "Axis powers" formally took the name after the Tripartite Pact was signed by Germany, Italy and Japan on September 27, 1940 in Berlin, Germany.

I'm starting to think the kid was for real. Can't blame someone for being ignorant, but these kids want it all spoon fed to them. You'd have thought they would try wikipedia, or even Google to get an answer.

Or read a damn book, but I know that's too much to ask.

I…ummm…errrr…. (faint)

Can't blame the kid entirely (not knowing his age) as history classes get short shrift these days. Most of what I've seen winds up stopping at the end of the 19th century with a few "special" segments on the civil rights and womens liberation movements – but nothing on WW2.

Even my son's AP European history class glossed over WW2 – focussing on the Pacific Theatre for a week. I don't believe his US history class even touched on it.

Wyatt

or ask their 5th grade history teachers….

With the vast amount of historical information available either in written form or on the internet or even from the Vets still alive it is amazing the lack of knowledge that is out there. I for one am constantly reading and studying military history and not just for my gaming LOL. Though a point in his favor is at least he is asking questions whether because of FoW or not. My question I think is what he will do with what is pointed out to him. Will it perhaps encourage him to find out more? Robert

They called themselves The Axis™ because they were Evil™.

come on you guys are being a little harsh, the history teachers dont really teach this too much (I can't even remember this)he seemed generally interested, he should of done some research and stuff but still, it was a simple question with a simple answer.

to quote wyatt

Can't blame the kid entirely (not knowing his age) as history classes get short shrift these days. Most of what I've seen winds up stopping at the end of the 19th century with a few "special" segments on the civil rights and womens liberation movements – but nothing on WW2.

Pretty much, being my age and am able to correct my history teachers on things (in a respectable manor) I can see why he could ask this…no one really cares why their called axis or allies…its just a name to most people.

Based on my experience from my High School history classes back in the day, Wyatt The Odd is more accurate than I like to think about: In my classes we didn't even get to World War I.

Lord, take me now…

LOL. I guess I had more of an advantage then the average student back in the 70s as I was also in AFJROTC in High School. Two of my teachers were B-17 pilots who flew over Germany during the war. And one was a B-52 tailgunner in Vietnam.I learned alot from them too. Robert

Sorry, but why is the fact that the name "Axis" originated in a speech by Mussolini in 1936 so critical to the education of a kid in 2009?

A kid who was curious enough to even wonder, bothered to ask, and even made a little self depreciating joke while asking.

I asked a young guy (not a gamer) who we fought against in WWII and who we were allied with. He said, "Thats's easy. Us and the Germans beat the Russians." And that's what he learned from Hollywood.

I believe over 60% of the adult population cannot name one supreme court justice and a slightly larger percentage cannot name the two nations that share a contiguous land border with the United States.

That the odd numb nut poster on a wargame forum is a bit out to lunch on the origin of a reasonably common but obscure by "Who is the Vice President?" standards (a stumper for about 40% of the US adult population), shouldn't come as much of a shock.

I'm surprised that our American cousins aren't taught WW1 & 2 in High School. In AU in the eighties we were taught WW1 extensively, still are. WW2 was optional, but I definitely spent a year studying the inter war period for my HSC (SAT equivealnt in AU), and did "Origins of WW2" as my 3 unit advanced history course.

But I am starting to feel bad for linking to this, it's similar to making fun of Helen Keller.

I am calling this a POSITIVE episode. A kid was ignorant, he got exposed to FOW, and now he starts to ask questions. At the end of it all he is a wiser kid than he started out to be. Yeah the state of American education is deplorable, and in this instance FOW did help educate a kid in a small way.

yeah, seems like a good deal to me

McWong73,
I taught both High School and college history. It is part of the curriculum outline to teach WW1 and WW2.

In Alabama World History is a 8th and 9th grade required subject. American History is taught In the 5th grade, 6th grade and 11th grade. Some colleges require US History, others World History and still others one or the other.

Some teachers may focus on social or political history but all topics in the guidelines have to be taught to prepare the kids for SAT and Graduate Exit exams standardized tests. Such measuring tests due to no child left behind is the focual point of eduation. In HS gone are the days of short answer and essay tests.

Most expansive research work in a topic field comes from the assiagnment of student individual projects and research papers. For example each grading period I required a tudent to do at least one project and they had the option of doing two more. To endure that I hit both right and left brain learners, I offered four types of project options: traditional research paper; 25 (minimum) entry timeline; a map (at least 4 good maps) or collage (25 items) board; and a expansive participation project (twice a year) which is a large number of options on the list including being a news reporter, oral history collector, etc).

So a lot about what is covered depends on the US State and the individual interests of the learner and even the teacher.

They can't name the vice president, or what amendment gives them the right to keep and bear arms, or sing the national anthem, BUT…
They CAN tell you who got booted off Big Brother, Lost, or Dancing with the Stars last night…
They can tell you allllll about what's going on on Desperate Housewives…
They can sing you every Britney song done….

Murphy, I beleive with the current media coverage they're starting to learn Michael Jackson lyrics. By today's standards that counts as classical music?

Rudy, thanks for shedding light on that. I certainly wasn't trying to make a fuss or comment about the US education system, both US and Australian schools have strong track records in producing half wits!

With the vast amount of historical information available either in written form or on the internet or even from the Vets still alive it is amazing the lack of knowledge that is out there.

The Internet is huge. There's plenty of stuff on it that doesn't interest us. It varies from person to person, and there's a huge chunk of the web that's off their radar. Or mine. Or yours. In a daily routine, how often do you venture off onto unfamiliar websites?

I'm not saying that ignorance is good, but that the immensity of the Internet poses a challenge in itself. It's like a mountain range, and you're searching for a stream somewhere in it.

"In a daily routine, how often do you venture off onto unfamiliar websites?"

Myself? Quite often to be truthful :). Im always looking for more information. Have been since 1994. Especially the obscure and lesser know LOL. And when I started gaming I looked even harder to increase what I knew and to try and understand what Military History was all about and how it effected and effects the world. Games made me want to find out more then what the game(s) presented. But that has been part of my mental make-up and personality since I was a child. Way before I started gaming back in 1976. I was an Army Brat for decades. I had great teachers and others in the current military then and former.And I remember my first history book that was given to me when I was 6 yrs old and home sick with Chicken Pox. It was a Illustrated History of WWI :). That started the whole ball a rolling for me :). Robert

Unfortunately Mc I see no change in the US system. Students will learn more about only those areas that they are interested in by individual desire. For example my son now teaches 6th grade and he plans to expand his 'project research workbut that was restricted last year to only being able to be taught after the SAT tests were finished for the year. He is encountering flak trying to have some projects scheduled for earlier in the year (in both history and planetary science)

Without a doubt I can say that I have learned more on Napoleonic warfare and history through individual research than I ever learned in college. That can be said about many eras that those of us with historical interests take knowledge on our eras of interest for granted.

FWIW, I'm 46, I've been reading WW2 history books on and off since I was oh, 9. And it wasn't until I read this topic that I realized I didn't know where the term "Axis" came from. I don't remember ever asking; it was just a phrase I saw in use and accepted.

This kid was smart enough to ask. He's one up on me.

'Asse' is the Italian for Axis and is the word Musso would have used.

Whatever happened to "there's no such thing as a stupid question"? The kid plays FoW, he feels comfortable asking his question on the FoW forum, so what? I just hope he got a sincere, straight answer and not tons of grief for his trouble. McWong, did anybody post a reply or point him to a link? Perhaps we can pass something along to him. For example:

link

Well I have to confess that I never knew, or wondered about the origin of the term "Axis." and I have been a WW2 enthusiast and reader for 30+ years. I don't recall it being taught in school, though that was a long time ago. I would rate the importance of the answer far behind the reasons for the Second World War, who were involved, its effects, and ways to avoid it happening again.

Isn't this exactly why FOW is a good thing? It attracts people (kids) who have little knowledge of the history and encourages them to find out more. This is an example of FOW at its best, not its worst.

I'm embarrased for the kid, I mean really, I can't believe he went to the internet for his answers. For Christs sake, he didn't even know the answer to a simple question like that. I say we go public with this outrage and point everyone to our elitest forums and prove to the world that we are intelligent and they are not.

We will then exclude them from some club or something. That will show 'em.

Someone buy him one of those nifty Afrika Korps shirts with the you-know-what symbol on it.

I picture a semi-circle of older gentlemen in smoking jackets with monacles, tea cups and pipes, turning thier noses up to the paupers.

Get real some of you'z

I'm with Don Rice – never even thought about where the word came from, just accepted it. I'm guessing the poster is in his early/mid teens… would I have looked it up in my mid teens? Hmmm, not sure. Now, yes certainly, if the question occurred to me and I felt I wanted to know I would check a book, or more likely the internet…

In fact, curious now as to whether I could find the answer, I just put "why were they called the axis powers" into Google. The first couple of links confirm Grunt1861's post, but add:

"The term "axis" is believed to have been first coined by Hungary's fascist prime minister Gyula Gömbös… Gömbös' sudden death… ended Hungary's initial involvement in pursuing a trilateral axis, but the lessening of differences between Germany and Italy would lead to a bilateral axis being formed."

Most people out there now that the Allies we called…

I worry more about that sentence. "Now that the Allies we called"? :-)

This is a critical element to all developed scenarios presently used by Battlefront. In fact, the very base of all the rules would fade without this knowledge.

I think this is the more worrying part. I'm hoping this is just a sense of humo(u)r…

Nothing against FoW… at least he asked. :-)

What were the responses to his question and statements on the other site?

Robert

At least the question wasn't along the lines of why can't you have Americans and Germans in the same force.

I remember being shocked by a snippet off the news a few years ago that mentioned a survey done of young people in the USA where a significant percentage (more than 10 I think) of respondents thought that the USA and Germany fought on the same side in WWII :O

On the UK news the other week it was revealed that only a tiny percentage of young people in the UK could name the commander of the British and allied army at the battle of Waterloo !!

They don't teach history any more. Perhaps it is all irrelevant :(

He got a straight answer, a little stick for not trying to look it up and a few laughs.

"Erm, history books?"

tiny percentage of young people in the UK could name the commander of the British and allied army at the battle of Waterloo

That's where the British and the Germans beat the Dutch under Napoleon with an orange… right?

"only a tiny percentage"

There was a survey a while ago where a substantial number of people asked thought Churchill was a fictional character…

It not the schools' fault as such,though they might not help but rather an attitude thing..if one becomes involved in a hobby one would expect one to immerse oneself in it..FOW and GW style games and… have the "in the book thing" and don't encourage, or even discourage going outside of the marketed product etc ….so it goes..this is one of the inherant problems of reducing history to a game..

What an over-reaction…

Humans are naturally inquisative and will always seek answers from Peers or parents.

but exactly how many could answer a 3 year old who asked you " why is the sky blue?" straight off the top of your head?

Would you honestly say as mcwong above " Can't blame someone for being ignorant, but these kids want it all spoon fed to them. "

And before you say "its different to this?

IS it REALLY?

One should never assume the sophistication of he question is related to age of the asker.

…just as one should never assume responsibility for education of the individual lies with the individual

I would suggest the origins of the term 'Axis' are not particularly well known and it was a fair question. When I read the question, I vaguely remembered something about a speech by Mussolini, but – and let's be honest here – how many of you would have gambled your house that you were 100% sure you knew the correct answer? I wouldn't have.

I remember, when I was about 12, playing the boardgame 'Third Reich' with my best mate. We were both really interested in history and the military (his father was a Captain in the British Army) and yet neither of us knew what this thing 'Vichy France' was – we'd never heard of it and it didn't make sense, so we ended up asking my father.
Luckily he didn't feel the need to publically humiliate us for showing an interest.

We can't knock a kid for asking a question – and what's the difference between looking it up in a book, searching Google or asking some online friends?

McWong73

---I certainly wasn't trying to make a fuss or comment about the US education system, both US and Australian schools have strong track records in producing half wits!---

Mc, I'll have you know I was educated in the Australian education system and I know that half of what you said doesn't apply to me! Er … I think. Maybe.

Cheers,

Pro …

Unbelievable.

Not him, you lot. It's a wonder every question on TMP isn't met with hoots of derision and abuse with this attitude. Why don't we close down TMP and replace it with a web page that just says "Go look it up!", eh?

If you don't know something, pray tell me what the hell is so wrong with asking someone about it? Seems to me he's interested enough in the subject to want to find out more. So shall we help him? No, let's crush his enthusiasm by telling him what a fool he is and laughing at him. And this from the types who bemoan the dumbing down of the hobby. Seems like you'd rather keep him in his state of ignorance so you can feel superior rather than help the guy out who wants to learn a little.

And which lot are you referring to LOL :)? I have seen people on both sides putting forth thier views. And I for one have done none of what you have stated. "No, let's crush his enthusiasm by telling him what a fool he is and laughing at him." I have even stated that him asking the qustion was a point in his favor. Is he a member of this site or is that happening by members here on the other site? Robert

In a daily routine, how often do you venture off onto unfamiliar websites?

Every day, honestly. I'm constantly seeking to learn new things, just because my brain's a glutton- it's never satisfied with the knowledge I have.

That said, however, sure, maybe the kid could've Googled it, but the fact that he cared at all is something, for one, and secondly, he didn't know something, so he asked.

I don't really see the harm in that.

Do I think it's a shame that the educational system apparently let him down in that regard?

Of course.

Am I going to ridicule him for seeking to correct that oversight?

Not a chance.

- Monk

TMP link

Doesn't anyone think its just a joke?

I mean whats the odds of a person with a forum name like Schwerpunkt (spelled correctly I Might add) asking that question seriously?

James