"I am sick and tired of gamers with superiority complexes!!!!" Topic

We have been flooded with their ilk the last week or so. You know the type:
"I cannot abide games with points systems! They are the sign of a lazy gamer!"
"Flames of War is basically a fantasy game with tanks."
"It saddens me when I see… "(fill in the blanks).

I can go on. If I seem to be taking one side of this "debate", it is because the opposite side has been particularly obnoxious this week.
However, this jeremiad rant applies to ANYONE who thinks his methodology, or game, is superior to anyone else's. This could apply equally well to Warhammer, DBA or other fanatic poinitilsts. I play both types, but it is the anti-points people who set me off this week.

Let me put this as bluntly as I can.
Why do you give a damn how *I* play? Why does it upset you so much when other people PLAY WITH TOY SOLDIERS in a way that you do not?

I have some news for you. You are NOT superior, you are merely a blowhard with an opinion. Your feeble attempts to show that your preferred method of PLAYING WITH TOY SOLDIERS is "superior" only show me that I am glad you are not in my club.

As for "sadden", you must lead a pretty miserable life when the mere thought of someone playing the way you do not depresses you. Get some medication for that.

amen

True quotes heard at Historicon:

"If I wanted to play a fantasy game, I would have gone to Origins" (while looking at a pulp game)

(paraphrased) "I only visit Historicon for a day to visit the dealers hall. I live less than 30 minutes from Baltimore, but I'm never stepping foot in there because nobody is going to bring any games."

"Duke has some nice boards, but I just can't bring myself to play his games when he already knows the outcome."

"I hate having to buy a copy of my own rulebook."

Agreed! Seconded! The OFM for Supreme leader!

LOL

I really hate the earnest "gamer" who sits there and watches you looking over supplements for a game you obviously have and then starts haranguing you about what a crappy game it is.

I usually respond with "Oh, so you play your preferred game in your Mom's basement alone, then?"

Since they are usually in their late 30s and do live in their Mom's Basic or Attic that shuts them up.

Whoah…(0_o)…

They only really bother me when I find myself sucked into reasoning with them. Otherwise, they can be rather amusing, in a pig-headed narrow-minded sort of way.

"jeremiad?"

The words "bed", "wrong" and "side" tend to spring to mind :)

"jeremiad?"

A rant in the style of Jeremiah the prophet. Great stuff.

"The words "bed", "wrong" and "side" tend to spring to mind :)"

I was going to guess lack of coffee. Or perhaps too much.:)

Preach it, Brother John!

I haven't had breakfast yet. That much is true.

Hello pot, meet kettle.

I wonder sometimes if too many gamers are embarrassed to admit they play with "toy soldiers" or "little men" which spills into being either defensive about gaming or almost too offensive as a reaction. I must confess, I get very sad seeing gamers who sound like or look like they are having a bad time which includes lecturing players on what is the right or wrong way to game, game mechanics, history, gun calibres, etc. Whether that is being elitist or superior I'm not sure, but I get weary having fellow gamers spend a lot of time, effort and energy trying to demonstrate they know far more about the period, game, tactics, then me or my gaming friends.

OK, I get it, I know less. No problem. Now, can we roll some dice, have a laugh, and enjoy the evening/weekend/etc.?

Finally, I don't know about you folks, but I've never been scared to death playing a game with my "little men". Alternatively, I've been scared beyond belief being shot at with real weapons. Gaming, I would hope, is for fun. Who knows more about history, tactics, or minor points I'll happily concede.

Erik

I have been guilty of personal bias and critique versus others, but in the long run it makes no difference – those who play silly games go on their merry way and will probably persist in doing so until they are carried out feet first. These days I tend to hold my tongue with strangers (friends can take it), knowing that they are wrong and my games are better than theirs.

It is much better (and cooler) to be quietly smug.

You do surprise me, John. Usually you're on the side of the elitists in this kind of affair.

The splendid fury over points systems seems particularly pointless (Yuk! Yuk!) to me. Why do these people care what gamers they will never meet, often on another continent, do in the privacy of their own homes?

Even if people play exactly like I do, my way is better then theirs.

John, we simulationists are not PLAYING WITH TOY SOLDIERS, we are EXPLORING HISTORICAL OUTCOMES USING MINIATURE FIGURINES.

If you cannot by now see the difference between PLAYING WITH TOY SOLDIERS and EXPLORING HISTORICAL OUTCOMES USING MINIATURE FIGURINES, then frankly sir I don't think you have a clue.

I would add that to have a historical outcome, a simulation need not be overcomplicated nor must it contain spurious detail or have any more than 5 or 6, maybe 7 or 8, pages of charts and tables.

I would thank you sir, to keep your opinions about PLAYING WITH TOY SOLDIERS to yourself, it gives those of us who EXPLORE HISTORICAL OUTCOMES USING MINIATURE FIGURINES a bad name

Good day

Oh, and what Erik said

What's a "Mom's Basic"?…

Btw, our rules ARE the best out there….

1066.us

You do surprise me, John. Usually you're on the side of the elitists in this kind of affair.

I am "elitist" in the sense that I will try like the dickens to get my flags, uniforms, facings, buttonhole lace, mitre caps, etc. "correct". I am the only one who cares, and 9 times out of ten, I use them to represent another unit entirely, since the 18th Pennsylvania was not really at the siege of Boston, but I have figures that are kind of close.

I doubt that anyone can find evidence of ME trying to force MY method of play on someone else. However, I will not issue a challenge, since it did not work out well for Gary Hart when he did.

The "anti-points" people remind me of Mencken's definition of Puritanism: "The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.."
And of course, Luke 18:11 applies too.
This week they have been as tolerant of others as the Taliban.

Points systems seem to be very important to simulationists. They seem to enhance the historial accuracy of the simulation. On a recent thread about the Battle of Trafalgar (and the rules "Trafalgar") it seemed obvious that to accurately simulate the Battle players would need to know how many points worth of ships Nelson had relative to his opponents. I've read a fair number of primary sources on the Battle, but have yet to come across Nelson's point list.

Points systems seem to be very important to simulationists. They seem to enhance the historial accuracy of the simulation.

Did you hear that *THUD*? That was Mike Snorbens falling over in a dead faint, you nasty man.

"I doubt that anyone can find evidence of ME trying to force MY method of play on someone else. However, I will not issue a challenge, since it did not work out well for Gary Hart when he did."

No one has ever forced anyone to do anything on TMP. We are all a self-opiniated lot and we enjoy expressing those opinions.

I think it should be an unwritten rule of TMP that EVERY post here carries an implied health warning along the lines of:
"This is only an opinion. If you don't agree with me fine. If you want to argue the toss with me about it then also fine. If you couldn't care a fig either way then equally fine."

"The "anti-points" people remind me of Mencken's definition of Puritanism: "The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy..""

If you are referring to me (and strangely I think you may be) then I will categorically state here that my views on points are just that – MY VIEWS. If you want to challenge, agree, dispute or argue the toss with me on the subject then we can have an interesting conversation.

I am NOT trying to force anyone to do anything, since frankly, here on TMP that is impossible!

Healthy debate rules, but please, let's keep it healthy.

"Did you hear that *THUD*? That was Mike Snorbens falling over in a dead faint, you nasty man."

Actually, no! The key word in charla's comment is SEEM and the sentiment in his whole post is one I heartily applaud!

Not that you have to agree with me of course …

I have to agree to a point. I will push all kinds of lead around the table. Though there is a difference between playing with a particular rule set/period and buying the rule set. I have played FOW, would I buy any of the rules for it, an emphatic no. I will play FOW if some of my friends are putting on a game. I have never figured out how someone can claim that one rule system is more accurate than another, for Pete's sake, they are all GAMES. I guess that is why there are all different kinds of candy, they all are good, but some are just better.

Mike

I wonder sometimes if too many gamers are embarrassed to admit they play with "toy soldiers" or "little men" which spills into being either defensive about gaming or almost too offensive as a reaction.

There's an awful lot of truth in that statement.

Erik Engling: Finally, I don't know about you folks, but I've never been scared to death playing a game with my "little men". Alternatively, I've been scared beyond belief being shot at with real weapons.

Well, it depends on what kind of death you mean. I have played at rather stuffy clubs where fielding a unit with not quite the correct colour lace will get you ostracised, in other words social death. I have been known to sweat profusely in such circumstances and even start to tremble. I have also been in the middle of maoist raids in the far east and rebel attacks in Africa and I don't think that there was so much fear involved as frantic thinking of how to get the fudge out of there.

My current gaming circle will happily allow the use of undercoated units and even armies. If we want to try out some rules then bits of coloured cardboard stand in for miniatures. A newbie who could not quite get feldgrau mixed was given the choice of half a dozen recipes or just using the nearest GW colour. I know which camp I am staying with.

Like Freemasonry, the wisdom of wargaming (or wargamming, to the cognoscenti) is primarily the concern of men in their fifties, completely irrelevent to society in general, and is revealed in degrees.

In the First Degree is revealed the knowledge of what are appropriate ways to play with toy soldiers. This knowledge is transmitted by wargammers baiting and flaming each other over rules and styles of play.

In the Second Degree is revealed the knowledge of what are appropriate venues for playing with toy soldiers. This knowledge is transmitted by wargammers baiting and flaming each other over locations wherein congregations of wargammers may be gathered.

In the Third Degree… well, unfortunately we cannot discuss that knowledge here. That secret wisdom is reserved for wargamming's Master Baiters and Master Flamers.

Allen

Which is why the most popular armies had Freemason Generals. Most of mine do.

those who are especially vocal regarding their superiority are usually trying to compensate for a physical shortcoming…

"Freemasonry": There's a good points system in that set of rules, isn't there?

"Which is why the most popular armies had Freemason Generals. Most of mine do."

For the AWI, that's practically everyone on both sides except Burgoyne.

"A am sick and tired of gamers with superiority complexes!"

This seems the cross that gamers need bear. I guess in order to not be a hypocrite, I must either give up scathing, arrogant word lashings doled out to those pinheads that disagree or learn to tolerate the ignorance.

Hmmm….

My name is Robert and I like to play with little men. I hereby resolve to be more tolerant, more understanding, and less judgmental of those well meaning people that disagree with my views.

…
Am I done now?

It saddens me to see OFM play Flames of War with his 2000 point Army of Gondor!

In my short rant against point systems I never said you couldn't or should use them. I listed the reason why I don't like them;
1-Perception of equality.
2-Author of rules making the game fit a point system.

So please OFM don't paint with such a wide brush, you are one of the first ones to get on someone when they make such broad statements and here you doing the same thing.

Chris

Lord, man, if I can't be superior to other people what on earth is the point of wargaming?

Pass the popcorn….

Seems there's a lot of feeling superior about not feeling superior going around here.

But my superiority complex is better than yours…

I'm not feeling superior about not feeling superior. I'm being smug.

Oh the humanity!

Good Lord i'm actually in complete and total agreement with John the OFM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.Well said sir. :0)

You ought to work at a booth at the dealer's room at Historicon. some gamers love to share their opinion on a number of obscure topics for rather long periods of time.

This is just one big SHUT UP topic – OFM for the dawghouse!

Seriously, it is yet another one of JOhn's attempts to stifle conversation he doesn't agree with. Discuss.
--
Tim

I am not worthy.

I think that all good, right thinking people on this forum are sick and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people on this forum are fed up with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am :)

I Say!

Back when I was a wee lad we were flogged for having a dissenting opinion.

Now it's,

Everyone has a right to his or her opinion.

Let people play anyway they want.

Lets have a group hug.

Bahhh……

I think we should return to the " good old days" where there is only one scale, one rule set, and the only true historical period. (The one I am playing)

<This space for rent>

I think we should return to the " good old days" where there is only one scale, one rule set, and the only true historical period. (The one I am playing)

I am far, far too young to remember the good old days, so out of curiosity, what was the one scale and one rule set every one used? ;)

-Will

Wminsing

It was a JOKE