"Soviet Panzerfausts" Topic

Did the Soviets have a doctrine in place for distributing captured stocks?

Not sure, but supposedly they are great for breaching walls, as well as killing tanks.

I heard that the Russian enjoyed 'returning' Panzerfausts to their original owners!

I think just before Berlin they captured so many in Silesia that they were pretty common….

They were producing their own knock-off version by the end of the war as well.

But I still don't know if they systematically gathered captured specimens and then distributed them to the troops. I would suspect that most Soviet soldiers who found one just held on to it.

Yes, they did. Captured ("trophy") Panzerfausts were collected and provided to front-level engineers, who issued them to specialized assault groups:

link

A great article, unfortunately now defunct, so you can't see it in Google translation, admittedly a pretty rough translation!

However, the text of the article was copied into this thread, which can be translated in Google, as here:

link

So, with some trepidation: "Since the end of 1944 in the German army in large numbers began to receive highly effective anti-individual means: «Faustpatron», and the jet gun «Pantsershrek». These samples weapons have not gone unnoticed in the Red Army. Trophy «Faustpatrony» was ordered to collect and transmit to the engineering services of fronts to distribute the latest in accordance with its own challenges. Most faustpatronov reported the assault to the engineering and engineering teams that have used them in the composition of the assault groups in suppressing the enemy firing points."

Yeah, well, OK… as I said.

Allen

Mserafin

'They were producing their own knock-off version by the end of the war as well'

Do you have any reference for this statement please?

the assault groups in suppressing the enemy firing points

yikes, so they gave them to the assault engineers for targeting dug in infantry. kind of like a hand held artillery piece.

Unfortunately, you'll find statements that the RPG-1 was a copy of (various models of) the Panzerfaust, rather than being a designation for captured weapons. It's one of those things that tends to stay in the collective memory somehow. But the first Soviet-produced weapon was the RPG-2, which wasn't even started until after the war.

Allen

"yikes, so they gave them to the assault engineers for targeting dug in infantry. kind of like a hand held artillery piece."

More for neutralizing machinegun bunkers, and frequently if not usually fired en masse. But yikes indeed.

Allen

My understanding is that the RPG-1 was a copy of the Panzerfaust.

the panzerfaust page seems to ahve pretty much everythign you want – link

According to it the Sov's did not produce a copy – they captured factories and kept them in production as the RPG-1.

The RPG-2 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-2 was a further development of the Pzfst-150 link which lead eventually to the RPG-7 beloved of "freedom fighters" ever since…..

"RPG…Tank Kaput"

The Panzerfaust page is pretty good. The only quibbles I would have are, as seen above, that the Soviets frequently called all models of Panzerfaust "Faustpatrony", and they did not ignore the name "Panzershreck".

Allen

Not to argue with the more knowledgeable* but surely the difference between 'The RPG-1 was made as a soviet copy' and 'The RPG-1 was what the soviets called the Panzerfausts made under their orders in occupied Germany' is a comparatively fine one.

*I have to argue with the more knowledgeable. I Like a nice argue, and they won't let me in the local Mental Hospital on Visiting days any more.

Pat

Thanks to all!

Oh dear. Once again I'm afraid people are making over-bold assertions for which I strongly doubt they can produce any shred of evidence.

The RPG-1 was an experimental weapon, originally designated LPG-44, which was first developed (as the original designation hints at) in 1944. Work continued until 1948, but it did not see service. As it is a long wooden-clad re-useable rocket-launcher with a pistol-grip, the idea that it is a Panzerfaust or Panzerfaust copy of any kind is obviously untrue by inspection.

The RPG-2 did see service; it was developed starting in 1947, with the original designation of DRG-40, and adopted by the Red Army in 1949. One still often sees assertions that this was in some way a copy of the late-model Panzerfausts, but in fact the design characteristics are quite different apart from the shape of the warhead.

My source for the above is "Protivotankoviye Granatomyotniye Kompleksi" ("Anti-tank launcher systems") by Lovi, Koren'kov, Bazilevich and Korablin, published by Vostochnoi Gorizont (Eastern Horizon), Moscow, 2001.

I always think it a great mistake to imagine that the Russians were incapable of engineering design without slavishly copying the Germans.

All the best,

John.

You might have also copied over your old r.g.m.h. posts from here; very useful:

link

Although Martin seems to have forgotten that (!) within a couple of years:

TMP link

Go give Steve Zaloga a whack, will you?

link

link

I am fairly certain that my thinking the "RPG-1" designator was applied to captured weapons came from a certain curator in St. Petersburg, but I'm glad to see the information you posted concerning the experimental weapon, and will go in search of the work cited.

Allen

You might think that museums would be pretty good at that there history stuff.

My impression was that use of panzerfausts by soviets was pretty limited rather than extensive as that Zaloga fellow seems to think.

I would suspect that most Soviet soldiers who found one just held on to it.

Would they even have known what it was, or how it was to be used?

Would they have considered it worth the extra weight, considering the likelihood of encountering German armour in combat?

Would their superiors have spotted it, and reacted to it?

Griefbringer

John D Salt

'Oh dear. Once again I'm afraid people are making over-bold assertions for which I strongly doubt they can produce any shred of evidence.'

I could not agree more! Contributors to TMP are very guilty of assertions such as:
'They were producing their own knock-off version by the end of the war as well.' by Mserafin in this thread; and when asked for references, they fail to reply.

These definitive unresearched statements are not only irritating but they also lead to serious misinformation and to perpetuated 'duff' information.

"Would they even have known what it was, or how it was to be used?"..Yes captured examples were demonstrated to Soviet soldiers Obviously not all would have been shown but they are pretty simple weapons(even I could probably use one!!)

"Would they have considered it worth the extra weight, considering the likelihood of encountering German armour in combat?"---True but in the book Ivans War the author describes how Soviet soldiers when shown it saw how useful it would be in street fighting esp. blasting from room to room…

Panzerfausts are pretty simple to use, once you know how their work – but trying to figure out the correct fashion without any instructions or training, just by trial and error, is likely to be a bad idea.

This was unfortunately tested by the Finnish army in summer 1944 – there had been a large number of panzerfausts and panzerschrecks delivered from Germany earlier that year, but by the time a massive Soviet attack started in 1944, they had not been delivered to the front. Nor had there been any training programme started about them. Eventually they were rushed to the front in a hurry, to improve the anti-tank defenses there, but without sufficient usage instructions or trainer cadre to accompany them. This lead to many people having to figure out their usage themselves – apparently some tried bracing the end to their shoulder, while others had the initial impression that the faust would be used as a some sort of cudgel.

I would be interested to know more about the Red Army training programme on the usage of captured panzerfausts – when did they start one? I would presume that besides demonstrations, they would have probably had some sort of leaflets distributed to the units.

Griefbringer

A Russian training programme on panzerfausts?

So let's think about that….
It would be 1945 by the time that Ivan saw enough panzerfausts to work out their effectiveness.
They then have to get together people and resources…
By that time even the Sovs were getting short of people.
So they set up a training programme???
Where?
How long would it take to train all the trainers – they need to gather a bunch of panzerfausts presumably.
Then the trainers travel out to the frontline units with their lorry full of panzerfausts and leaflets.

I just see all sorts of practical problems.

I think the training consisted of showing one being fired in front of a company/battalion and then having it verbally explained…..Not that hard really…
They may have been a bit short of infantry but that is only relative--Compared to the Germans they were fully manned…And remember they were always strong when and where it counted…

Training should be simple enough plenty of German POWs shoot them if they refuse.

It's an organised training programme I find somewhat difficult to imagine.

Ad hoc demonstration in a few specialised units in the closing stages of the war seems more likely to me.

I've heard plenty of stories of allied infantrymen using panzerfausts.
If you believed some veterans, the entire British army was carrying mg42 in one hand and a faust in the other.
Others ( who were sometimes spookily in the same units ) say they never heard of anyone using a captured panzerfaust, ever.
Ever since, I have been particularly sceptical.

I'm not suggesting that learning to use one of the things is terribly hard.
Anyone who could read one of the german pamphlets and try one out would get the picture.
Starting up an organised programme of training is something else entirely.

I wouldn't really care much either way but for the rpg-1 thing.

This Soviet manufactured panzerfausts story just won't go away. I've seen games with regular soviet riflemen platoons given a panzerfaust a squad. The owners justification being the rpg-1.
Here we go again.

By that time even the Sovs were getting short of people.
So they set up a training programme???

Well, the fewer people you have, the less time it takes to train them…

If you believed some veterans, the entire British army was carrying mg42 in one hand and a faust in the other.

Don't forget driving around with captured Panthers!

Griefbringer

As i more or less recall from a Zorro movie:

"Do you know how to use that thing (sword)"

"The pointy end goes into the other guy"

That was a sword but the idea holds true. I don't imagine it would take much more to figure out what to do with a bomb on the end of a tube, especially after having had it been used against you for non instructional purposes.

If most people can figure out how to use much more confusing things like a guitar, the internet, 4-way-stops or silverwear without a lengthy educational seminar; i think the soviets wouldn't be experts, but they could manage.

How much training do you think the volksturm got on them? Probably about as much as the average soviet grunt – "point it this way, aim like this, press this to fire it".

Those that got it right might have had some tips to give to others later, those that got it right twice got a medal.

Zaloga in one of his books on the Red Army says they made "extensive" use of them, but doesn't give a source for that.

Let's have a look at what the Germans put in their ops pamphlets for Tigers and Panthers: link

by 1945 "the West" pretty much had a monopoly on the luxury of decent ttraining programmes for anyone a all.

Volksturm probably had the advantage of somebody warning them about the dangers of the backblast – or at least being able to read the German instructions for the weapon.

Griefbringer

By that time even the Sovs were getting short of people.

Sorry but this is simply untrue.

From mid 1943 the total strength of the RKKA was maintaiend at around 12 million with around 6 million actively deployed against the Axis. And, apart from the usual flexing due to operations that's pretty much how it stayed right to the end.

What happened was that more manpower was channelled into armour and artillery (the original Weapon of Mass Destruction) at the expense of the infantry.

See 'Stalin's Keys to Victory' by Dunn for a discussion of this very subject and how they were releasing a few hundred thousand technical specialists back into the civilian economy (well, as civilian as it gets in the USSR) in 1945.

Anyway,

1. The Red Army maintained Trophy Companies (I have the ID booklet of a guy who was in one) specifically for the purpose of assembling captured weapon stocks. I imagine they'd have had something to say about the ad hoc use of 'economic assets'.

2. They had a large training establishment. It was one of the reasons they were able to maintain their strength.

If you can train a ten year old on using a panzerfaust in an afternoon, you probably could train a Russian soldier in at least the same amount of time. The pictogram on the weapon explains its range and method of firing.

Sadly, my rule set of choice (Battlegroup) does not have a mechanism for using them in a non-antitank role