"WWII Tank and anti-tank Ammunition" Topic

I need some comments on the following: Any errors or areas that need more work?
Notes on Ammunition
1. CS tanks had howitzers that fired HE and smoke. Later CS tanks such as the Churchill and Cromwell variants would also have HEAT in limited quantities.
2. The British 2 pdr did not have a HE round. However, in 1944 the "Little John" adaptor was introduced which gave it the capability to fire HVAP (squeeze bore) ammunition. The use was limited to armored cars.
3. The US 37mm on the M8 armored car and the M3 and M5 series of light tanks had a useful canister (shotgun) round. This was also available for the 37mm towed anti-tank gun. The canister round was used to good effect by the USMC in the Pacific where the 37mm was still a useful anti-tank and anti-bunker gun.
4. British 6 pdr had an HE round introduced in 1943 (used in Sicily/Italy), but only armor piercing prior to that. It was issued to both the towed anti-tank gun units and to 6 pdr equipped Churchill Infantry support battalions.
5. The US 57mm copy of the 6 pdr didn't have HE in Normandy. It was issued just before the breakout and available in the August and later battles in Europe..
6. The British 6 pdr gun had limited amounts of APDS ammunition (special ammunition) available in Normandy. This was limited only to the anti-tank gun units but as the ammunition became more readily available it was issued to British tank units (Churchill and Cromwell) equipped with 6 pounder tanks. Estimate it can be issued as limited ammunition September and after for British 6 pdr tank units in North West Europe, possibly earlier or at the same time to British units in Italy.
7. US 57mm equipped battalion anti-tank companies were issued British 6 pdr APDS approximately December 44 or January 45. Units in the Bulge apparently had some APDS and U.S. infantry units attacked in the German Operation "Nordwind" did have APDS ammunition in limited supply for their 57mm anti-tank guns.
8. British 17 pdr anti-tank guns were issued APDS prior to Normandy, but didn't have HE until September 44. British Firefly tanks with 17 pdr and Achilles 17 pdr M10 GMC were issued APDS in limited supply approximately September 44 along with limited HE ammunition. The same for Archer equipped anti-tank units.
9. US 76.2mm and 3" SP and towed tank destroyer units were issued with limited HVAP approximately August 1944 (along with the first M4 Sherman (76) tanks). HVAP remained in limited supply for the rest of the war, with priority for its issue going to the towed and self-propelled tank destroyer battalions. US units with Sherman tanks with the 76.2mm tank gun obtained HVAP from US M18 Hellcat GMC tank destroyer units whose vehicles had the same gun. HVAP for tank units remained in limited supply but was more readily available after January 1945. US 90mm GMC also received 90mm HVAP after January 1945, in limited qualities.
10. Soviet T34/76, SU76 and the SU85 and T34/85 had limited issue of HVAP ammunition from 1943 on – these being copies of German 75mm HVAP rounds. The Soviet rounds were effective only at close ranges (under 80 inches Large Scale) due to tolerance problems in manufacture.
11. German anti-tank guns and tanks had limited quantities of HVAP ammunition available from the invasion of France through the end of the war for the 28/20 and 47/45 squeeze bore anti-tank guns, and for the standard 37mm Pak and tank guns, 50L42 tank guns, 50L60 tank and Pak 38 guns, 75L43 – L46 – L48 – L70 guns; and for the 88L56 and 88L71 Pak and tank guns. This was limited from 1941-1943. After 1943 the ammunition was rare which meant it was almost never available and would be issued only if the tactical situation was known to possibly require it (i.e. It was limited to the Russian front and used only on Soviet heavy tanks.). After 1943 the squeeze bore guns didn't have ammunition.
12. HEAT. For guns this was available to US in 1942 for the 105mm FH and M7 HMC as well as the M8 HMC and 75mm and 105mm Pack Howitzers. The Germans had it in 1941 but didn't authorize its use until February of 1942. It was available for all German guns of 75mm or larger caliber up through 150mm, including the 75mm and 105mm recoilless guns used by German Paratroops. A stick bomb (Stiehlgranate) using a HEAT warhead was developed for the 37mm, 47mm, and 50mm Pak guns as a close-range weapon in an attempt to extend the usefulness of these weapons. The Russians introduced HEAT in 1943, again copied from captured German rounds. The British had HEAT for their 95mm CS tank guns in Italy and North West Europe. The Japanese also had HEAT ammunition for their infantry guns and field guns. In all cases HEAT ammunition would be available in limited quantities. The US Bazooka was first used in North Africa, Sicily, and Italy. The Panzerfaust 30 was introduced on the Russian front in late 1943, with the Puppen introduced in Sicily and Italy. The German bazooka would be issued starting in the early spring of 44. The British PIAT replaced the anti-tank rifle in 1943, again in Sicily/Italy. The Soviets began production of the RPG-1 in 1944 (a copy of the Panzerfaust 60) as well as used captured German Panzerfaust .
13. Smoke ammunition is available for howitzers and mortars, and self-propelled guns or howitzers. It is available in limited quantities for tanks and these have to have guns or howitzers mounted of 70mm or larger. US tanks can have their smoke rounds be white phosphorous (WP) ammunition. It would be limited to no more then 1 to 3 rounds per tank, placed in the ready ammunition rack on a Sherman (WP rounds had to be stored sitting upright or the phosphorous would shift in the shell).

1. The earliest CS tanks didn't have HE, just smoke.

12. 19443. While certain Soviet guns could fire HEAT rounds they were forbidden to do so because it could explode in the barrel.

2. "Littlejohn" ia one word. The adaptor's use was limited *primarily* to armoured cars. The round's designation was Armour-piercing, composite non-rigid (APCNR)
and Armour-piercing super velocity (APSV).

Allen

There was an HE round for the 2pdr in North Africa. But it was not issued and needed a sight alignment for the gun, which did not allow rapid changes in ammo type while firing and maintaining accuracy.

The US 37mm canister round was also used in Europe, I've read of use in clearing hedgerows.

2. I have read that there was an HE round for the 2 pdr towed anti-tank gun and that it was used. This may have been subject to Bucks statement, but I am not sure. The tank mounted 2pdr did not have an HE round issued that I could find.

Also the Littlejohn adapter prevented the firing of HE rounds, IIRC the main reason it was not fitted to all 2pdrs.

I don't think any Cromwells were fitted with 6 pdrs.

I think that Russian 76.2 ATGs had cannister.

Cromwell I (357 produced) was initially built with a 6-pdr gun. Most early versions were retrofitted with 75mm before deployment for active service.

Cromwell V was the first version to be equipped with the 75mm gun from the factory.

"10. Soviet T34/76, SU76 and the SU85 and T34/85 had limited issue of HVAP ammunition from 1943 on – these being copies of German 75mm HVAP rounds. The Soviet rounds were effective only at close ranges (under 80 inches Large Scale) due to tolerance problems in manufacture."
80 yards? 800 yards?
any ideas?

2. There was a 2pdr HE round available in 1940, which may (or may not, depending on sources) have been used by 1st Armoured Div in particular. The Australians maufactured 2pdr HE locally for use with Matildas et al in the Pacific.

12. IIRC the RPG-1 was a handheld anti-tank grenade, not a copy of the panzerfaust. Captured panzerfausts were used extensively, 'proper' RPGs weren't developed until after the war. The PIAT was a spigot mortar, so did not generate any significant back blast.

13. I wouldn't go nuts with allowing huge quantities of smoke ammo, even for artillery and mortars. Overall stocks were relatively limited and laying major screens could blow the smoke supply for an entire Army in a few hours.

Well, at least 400 metres against a Tiger II

link

" This is how the commander of the 53rd GTBr described the battle:

"An enormous tank crawled from within the valley. It was jerkily climbing up and swerving on the sand. From the left flank, Major Korobov exclaimed on the radio:
- They're coming!
I replied:
- Be patient! Open fire from 400 metres only!
Behind the first tank, the second beast came from the valley, and soon the third tank appeared. The first had already passed Ivyshkin's ambush position.
- Fire? – he asked.
- Fire!
I saw a part of the haystack over Oskin's tank move, and the gun barrel appeared. It fired, and then again and again: Oskin had commenced the battle. Through my binoculars, I could see black holes in the sides of the German tanks. At first I saw only smoke, but then I saw flames. The third tank turned to Oskin, but it was immobilized after it received a hit in its tracks, and then it was hit again for good. I called the code signal "307 – 305" on the radio. At that moment, German Howitzers began firing, and soon the air in the valley up to Ogledów was filled with smoke and dust." Junkers bombers and Messerschmitt fighters appeared in the sky at the same time that Soviet fighters arrived. An air battle began."

"

This was achieved using HVAP ammo.

"13. I wouldn't go nuts with allowing huge quantities of smoke ammo, even for artillery and mortars. Overall stocks were relatively limited and laying major screens could blow the smoke supply for an entire Army in a few hours."

I've been trying to find reliable statistics about smoke shell production and unit stocks with no luck. Do you have any solid information?

From other sources:
1. 2 pdr HE available in France 1940 but production stopped until 1943. By 1943 no British tanks with 2 pdr and 2 pdr no longer used as anti-tank gun. HE used by armoured cars with 2 pdr – usually 1/2 of the armored cars had 2 pdr with HE and AP and 1/2 had Littlejohn adapter. As mentioned, LJ adaptor prevented use of HE.
2. 80" in the rules I use would be 400 meters. These comments will be going into a rule set update.
3. RPG-1 not an anti-tank hand grenade, but Soviets didn't make RPG-1 Panzerfaust either. They did use captured ones. RPG-40, RPG-43, and RPG-6 were the Soviet anti-tank hand grenades. RPG-40 ineffective (HE only). Other 2 used HEAT warhead and were thrown – grenade had a "tail" to keep the HEAT pointed forward.
4. Confirm all Cromwells in NWE retro-fitted or built with British 75L38 and no 6 pdr. 1/4 of Churchill tanks did have 6 pdr with HE and APDS ammunition.
5. HEAT in Russian guns. Suspect HEAT couldn't be used in any Soviet gun with a muzzle brake. Was used in T34/76 and T34/85 guns.
6. 37mm cannister – 37mm gun reference to use in the Pacific is to the towed anti-tank gun, which wasn't used in NWE. Paragraph states 37mm cannister was used in the M3 and M5 series of tanks, and the M8 armored car all used in NWE.

Provide stats on smoke ammo availability. As far as I know the US 75mm (M8 HMC and pack howitzer), 105mm, 155mm did not have a chemical smoke ammunition shortage, and there were chemical smoke battalions in Europe. US 4.2" mortar was originally designed to fire chemical ammunition including smoke. Now, WP may not have been in large supply but it normally wasn't used for laying smoke screens in WWII, and 75mm tank smoke and WP was not normally carried except for restricted quantities. M4 Shermans with 105mm howitzer would carry more then other Shermans. 3 rounds normal – 5 max on a 75mm Sherman. 3" and 75.2mm might have 1 or 2 rounds WP.

Thanks. I received more answers on other sites but your additions conforms to the responses received there.

TG

11. After 1943 the squeeze bore guns didn't have ammunition.

Yes they did. The tungsten shot was replaced by a soft steel shot. The penetration of the 75/55 went from 167mm@500m to 78mm@500m. The steel replaced the tungsten shortly after the guns introduction in July-August 1942.

"British 6 pdr had an HE round introduced in 1943 (used in Sicily/Italy), but only armor piercing prior to that. It was issued to both the towed anti-tank gun units and to 6 pdr equipped Churchill Infantry support battalions."

Do you have a source for that?
I have the ammunition scales for Eighth Army for 1943-45. 6-pdr AT guns were not issued with any HE. This was deliberate – 6-pdrs were AT guns, and the powers that be didn't want crews trying to behave like light artillery.

Incidentally, the 37mm in British service (arming Honey and Grant tanks) were not issued HE either – they only had AP.

Wasn't the Littlejohn adaptor used on the Tetrarch?

Yes, I do believe it was.

The best comment I've heard on 2pdr H.E. ammo is that it was available right form 1939,most of the pre war stockpile was used up in the BEF in France.Priority was give to AT production,and 2pdr HE only began to begain to re-apear by the time the gun was being phased out.
With 6pdr ammo apparently U.S. and British AT gun crews would swap ammo,British trading APDS for H.E as the U.S 57mm and British 6pdr had interchangable ammo.Most of thes anacdotes are from crews.

Zeezee is absolutely correct, according to a friend of mine, who has the UK's largest private collection of artillery and ammunition (it's bigger than the Imperial War Museum's – he was on the BBC2 programme 'Coast' last week, demonstrating Victorian coastal artillery). He's got actual 2pdr HE rounds with '1941' stamped on them.

It started being issued in quantity in 1944, with some British armoured car regiments actually removing the Littlejohns from a proportion, or even all, of their guns so that they could fire it. 2 HCR are on record as having a successful 2pdr HE shoot at an 88 across the Waal at Nijmegen in September 1944.

American 37mm canister rounds could also be fired through the 2pdr and the British sent all their stocks out to the Far East – the Australians and New Zealanders both received them (for their Matildas and Valentines, respectively).

There was even an experimental HE round, with a crushable mesh sleeve, designed to be fired through the Littlejohn. Three prototypes were built – the first two exploded in the Littlejohn and the third (and only survivor) is in my friend's collection.

6pdr HE was found to be the most versatile anti-bunker weapon available in India and Burma. The 2nd Norfolks even dragged theirs via miles of trackless jungle, to a point above and behind the Japanese positions at Kohima, from where they engaged them directly with HE.