"Why are orcs green and/or look like pigs?" Topic

Just curious how these weird characteristics of orcs crept into fantasy gaming, and why they seem to be the only race this happened to? I mean, nobody has dragons as insurance salesmen or ogres that smell like suntan lotion, or whatever other strangeness. How did orcs get these arbitrary characteristics?

Got the idea for this question from the other pig faced orc topic.

Orcs have always been green, just like goblins. When I got my first orcs back in the mid 70s, I just painted them green, it was the natural thign to do – maybe they were described that way in The Hobbit or LOTR. Pig faced orcs were Minifigs gift to the world, but IIRC they are described as having snouts.

Dragons may not be insurance salesmen, but they are invariably long-winded bores.

The original DnD described them as green and pig faced I believe.

i also think that DnD is to blame.

the Lord of the Ring orcs are NOT green. in fact orcs should not be green but more greyish or brwownish.

Actually (and FABET01 can correct me if I'm wrong), I believe that JRR describes the Orcs as being black skinned and brown skinned. I don't think green even enters into the equation (though it -might- with the Goblins of the misty mountains).

Originally, Orcs of mythology were described as being greenish tinged, however.

So it really depends upon whose description you go with. I've always imagined them as being very "Gammorean Guard"-ish, myself, but that's only one interpretation, and I recognize that I'm in the minority.

-A.

"Orcs of mythology"?

In Tolkien, orcs are actually dark skinned or reddish in tone, not green, IIRC.

The original AD&D Monster Manual, orcs were drawn as having pig snouts. (One of the poorer pieces of art.) Goblins, drawn by the talented David Trampier, had distorted, ugly features but did not resemble pigs or any other animal. I don't recall either race being described as green. (I can't check because someone at a game convention in Alabama in 1992 stole my original AD&D Monster Manual.)

According to the (Basic) D&D Cyclopedia, goblins are "a pale earthy color, such as chalky tan or livid gray" and have "pointed ears and misshapen teeth" and red eyes that glow in dim light. Orcs are simply described as having "bestial facial features and teeth" and looking like "a combination of animal and man." No skin tone is mentioned.

I think Games Workshop is the first company to formally make orcs and goblins green, but I don't know if they are the source of the idea.

"Orcs of mythology"?

The Old English word which Tolkien used as "orc" is the word for "ogre" or "demon." I suspect that's what Aurelian means. But no, they aren't described as either pig-like or green anywhere that I know of.

However, according to Wikipedia, "orc" is apparently a Gaelic word for pig.

More than you wanted to know:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc

"Orcs of mythology"?

Yes, "Orcology" or "Orkology" if you're a halfwit.

"Orcs of mythology"?

*Sigh*

Thank you for clarifying for me, Parzival. I am strongly remembering a greenish tinge described in Irish/Galeic/Celtic mythology, however. That said, more than willing to be wrong on that. just sticks out sharply in my memory.

-A.

I thought they were human – elf cross and looked dog like
Or was that just the white wizards lot?

I thought somewhere in Tolkien they were described with "porcine" meaning piglike features. I always thought that the green colour was a GW creation. Could easily be wrong on both points though. The AD&D orcs were definitely pig faced although I've lost my monster manual from the early 80's too.

Martin Rapier "Orcs have always been green, just like goblins. When I got my first orcs back in the mid 70s, I just painted them green, it was the natural thign to do "

My first ones got blue/gray skin. I painted them after watching the Rankin-Bass version of The Hobbit.

JRR done it. Tolkien describes Orcs in one of his Letters as "sallow-skined".

link

Sallow a grayish greenish yellow color. Sallow is one of those color names that can mean different things to different people, but this site has Sallow as NBS-ISCC 105:

tx4.us/nbs/nbs-s.htm

Looks kind of green to me.

LLC aka Ron

I painted my first orcs a very light purplish color. (Der Kriegspiel's -- still one of my favorite figs).

The pig stuff probably came from Bored of the Rings (first few chapters are a great read -- just don't finish the book).

The Green stuff has to be GW -- they like green more than anyone in this hobby!

mjc

Like Inquisitor I painted my first Orcs blueish and pale. I just assumed they were pale because they spent much time underground or running around at night. Mine were evil albinos

BTW Are GW LOTR orcs supposed to be green? If so, I think that's an inconsistency. Orcs are, as La Long Carbine said, sallow. Uruks are black.

Werent GW orcs green due to being part plant or something like that?

My orcs are brown or blackish in skin color. Plus none of those pig snouted Isle of Dr Morea, or however you spell it, half man half animal freaks.

Ron,
the wiki article on orcs was pretty interesting. I like the idea that he based his discription of orcs on the Huns.

Check out the late Roman author Ammianus where he describes the horrible visage of the Huns:

"They all have compact, strong limbs and thick necks, and so monstrously ugly and misshapen, that one might take them for two-legged beasts or for the stumps, rough-hewn into images , that are used in putting sides to bridges."

"Sallow" is an unhealthy yellow, from an Old Norse word for yellow; the same word is the root for a French word meaning "dirty". Here is a definition with etymology: link

I don't have a reference but I recall the same word being used in pulp-era stories -- that is, contemporary to Tolkien -- as an uncomplimentary reference to Asian skin color, usually in a context with descriptions implying sullenness, uncooperativeness, untrustworthiness, and/or uncleanliness.

I seem to recall Tolkien also using the word "swarthy" but I haven't seen that online anywhere. That is a word meaning dark-skinned: link

Also of course he used "black-skinned".

I'm pretty sure when I read those words in the early 70s at the age of 10, I knew or looked up the literal meanings, but I did not picture Orcs as looking like African or Asian people. (I'm not sure what I pictured … read on.)

The Tolkien Calendar for 1975 had artwork by multiple-Hugo-winning fan artist Tim Kirk. The Orcs in it have dull green and dull yellowish-green skins. Here is one picture: link

I had that calendar and it pretty much clicked for me what the Orcs looked like. When I painted my first Orcs for D&D (which would be c. 1978 or thereabouts), I used a dark slate green color for their skin.

FWIW, the Wikipedia article linked above by LLC aka Ron has an uncited reference to a White Dwarf interview with a UK games club that claimed they were the first to paint Orcs with bright green skin, and thereafter the gaming community copied them. (?!) Strange and funny if true.

As far as Orcs looking like pigs, I was never sure where that came from. I don't recall it in original (white box) D&D, because I remember being surprised when someone described them that way in an apazine in the late 70s. I think those awful Hildebrant paintings of Tolkien portrayed them that way, and there were certainly miniatures that looked like that in the same era (I didn't buy them). It may have made it into the first Monster Manual; I don't remember and would have ignored it if I read it. I do recall a lot of odd colors being offered for their skin (like yellows and reds) … and ignoring it.

I don't think I've ever painted a green orc… not even my GW ones.

Some of my old Runequest elves had a bit of green tint to them… since they were plants an all.

I've come across the term 'sallow skin' quite often. I think it is used for the Huns and Sarmatians in "Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome" by Phil Barker.

I never assumed a negative connotation, but I have thought 'swarthy' was a negative term.

I married a girl from S.E. Asia and she is brownish, but is deep olive on the rare occasion she allows herself to tan. Here eyes are slanted, but much too sexy for an orc!! She'll call me 'buang!' for typing this.

Heh. I also married a SE Asian (Cambodian), and I have wondered how much some of the authors I've read (Tolkien, and especially Lovecraft) would feel uncomfortable around some of them.

andy

My 1979 AD&D Monster manual has the pig faced orcs and describes them as

"…disgusting because their coloration – brown or brownish green with a bluish sheen – highlight their pinkish snouts and ears. Their bristly hair is dark brown or black, sometimes with tan patches."

I can't find the earlier books.

They got the swine flu.
-Kle.

FWIW, the Wikipedia article linked above by LLC aka Ron has an uncited reference to a White Dwarf interview with a UK games club that claimed they were the first to paint Orcs with bright green skin, and thereafter the gaming community copied them. (?!) Strange and funny if true.

It appears (or reappears) in white dwarf within the last six months, i'll try to track the article down.

Andy,
my wife is a Filipina. No tentacles, or extra eyes, or webbing between fingers or toes. She does have preternatural swimming ability!

I believe the Brothers Hildebrand are to blame; I saw some of their calendar art circa the mid-seventies, and their orcs are green and pig faced… kind of looked like skinny Gammorean Guards that broke off and formed their own street gang…

No green here:

picture
picture
picture
picture
picture
picture
link

And no pig snouts either!

I love Angus' gorilla/ape look and coloring for them. That is how I will be painting mine:

link
link

CC
PS. For kid stories, I guess the comical look of piggy ones are ok:
TMP link

I first saw the pig-faced orcs on the cover of the 1979 D&D module "Keep on the Borderlands." Likely this was designed as the AD&D Monster Manual was in 1979.

link

I painted my first orcs (converted from Airfix figures) with green skin back in 1970. This was because black or brown skin was too hard to differentiate from the black uniforms and armor. I took the color from the description of the cave troll in Moria and it seemed to work out OK then and obviously had some kind of appeal.
GW and others probably got the green skin idea from the Tim Kirk Tolkien calendar.
As to pig snout orcs, those come from the illustrations of the never to be sufficiently damned Brothers Hildebrandt.
Worst orcs EVER.
Thanks,
Pat

Here's a 1959 depiction of piggy orcs. Yes, that's what I said . . . 1959!!!

link
YouTube link

Does anyone know of any piggy orc illustrations or films that predate 1959?

If not, I think this is your source for the piggy orc concept.

CC

CC, maybe that is where the NTBSD Hildebrandts got it but the man on the street got it from them.
Sort of like I know GW didn't get green orcs from me unless Kevin Adams grew up in the Chicago Suburbs and was hanging around our gaming group.

"Orcs of mythology"?

The Old English word which Tolkien used as "orc" is the word for "ogre" or "demon." I suspect that's what Aurelian means. But no, they aren't described as either pig-like or green anywhere that I know of.

Alright. The turn of phrase caught me by surprise after seeing, for many years, people citing that same etymology and concluding that, nonetheless, Tolkien/D&D/GW orcs are firmly Tolkien's/D&D's/GW's.

while i do not quite get people likening their "SE asian" wives to orcs (even in good humour or in irony):

i have a copy of an older german edition of "The Hobbit" in which orcs are clearly portrayed in an "asian" style, japanese and even a wee bit samurai-like.

no idea whether Tolkien intended that though..

Hunnic conquest of Ermanaric's kingdom sparked a lot of interesting legends.

link

I would not be surprised if some of the evil creatures in European folkloric stories were imbued with stereotypical Asian characteristics as a result of fear of steppe warrior cultures (Huns, Avars, Magyars, Mongols).

CC

hwarang,

I did not intend you to 'get' anything.

Thanks Cacique, good stuff.

but looks like you got me, which is the reason i posted that.

Pork -> Ork…..Now I need some bacon.

Some of those early paintings of pig-faced orcs fetch a pretty penny.

link

"i have a copy of an older german edition of "The Hobbit" in which orcs are clearly portrayed in an "asian" style, japanese and even a wee bit samurai-like.

no idea whether Tolkien intended that though.."

Actually, Tolkein's world was heavily influenced by his time in South Africa. I've heard it argued that the Orcs, specifically the Uruk, were influenced by his fascination with the Zulu. Which would explain why they were described as being brown or black.

-A.

One thing I like about fantasy is that it is like Bilbo's trolls.

Let us paint them brown. Paint them black, says I! Each to his own, boys! There's plenty for all. I likes mine green.

CC I really like those pictures by Angus. Those orcs look totally "sallow".. ;-)

picture

My favorite orc figures are the Dark Hold orcs sold by Rebel Mins.

link

LLC aka Ron

Historically orcs are not green. This is a weird GW fabrication. Though I like the GW Orcs, no green paint goes near their skin.
Facing colors on Orc uniforms though did vary even in the same regiments.

i wonder what "historical" orcs would be..

GW may not have been the first to come up with green-skinned orcs, but I recall discussion in the past that they went with the green skin and caricatured features to 'de-Tolkein-ize' them.

Maybe Orcs can be any colour you want them to be, from brown to green and anyhing in between

I think Xenophanes makes reference to "historical" orcs…

"The Ethiops say that their gods are flat-nosed and black,
While the Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair. While the orcs of the River Danube claim their gods to be pink in color with protruding porcine noses. [If each could draw and sculpt, then]… each would shape bodies of gods in the likeness, each kind, of their own."

Many years ago, after I'd produced a set of Army lists for WRG 6th Edition for playing LotR games link I was asked by GW to produce an LotR supplement for Warhammer. Initially I said yes and – as GW had the ICE licence in the UK at the time and wanted the game to tie in with that, they sent me a copy of all of the ICE roleplaying supplements many of which featured the fantastic artwork of the now (sadly) late Angus MacBride.

Things were going well until the conversation came around to the colour of Orcs. "Er… well they have to be green – like all of our Warhammer Orcs" said the (I shall not name him) high up bod at Workshop.

We parted company at that point…

One of the only things I could applaud the Jackson movie for was not succumbing to 'greenorkanisms'. The rest of the film is fairly poor in my opinion (but that's a different thread I'm sure) but – despite GW gaining the rights to make modern approved LotR figures (and some of them very nice too [within the design constraints imposed by the film]) I remember seeing an early LotR game from Workshop at a con in London where staff were fielding an army full of GREEN ORCS.

I questioned the gentleman running the game and he said something along the lines of "Oh well, you just go onto auto pilot witht he green paint…"

Tolkien's orcs are – as has been detailed above – variously described as Sallow, Black and Swarthy. Never green.

And since his are the only orcs that matter, who cares about anyone elses?

My choice figure wise would be Thunderbolt Mountain, followed by old Ral Partha where available (well, the ones done by Tom Meier) and then selected figures from GW's LotR range (light on silly weapons and crossbows etc, heavy on scimitars, chain mail and useable shields).

And a big pot of brown paint (with some yellow, black and grey for variation).

John T

I paint my orcs either tan, reddish tan, or dark brown. Recently, I did a group of albino orcs who lived under ground. To me, the only green skinned goliath is the hulk. If you are not infected with gamma radiation, you have a normal mammalian skin color.

My next project is to paint them the same as fair skinned humans. It is an experiment, but I bet it freaks people out.