"The eternal column vs line" Topic

Ok, I got into another skrap with a chap(hey it rimes)

After readig this place and other places, I have come to the conclution(it might be wrong) that the French trying to charge into lines while in column is a myth, and that when ever it happed it was by mistake, they couldn't see the enemy lines and came to close.

And that the real tactic was to always deploy in line before closeing with the enemy.

I know from reading this place there dosn't seem to be a concensus. And I know that alot of rules give bonues to column in mele.

So is this a total myth, is it 100% true, or is this one thing we will never agree on

This could grow into another "command radius" thread! Who has the popcorn?

It's been, what? 2 or 3 days since we had a barn burner like this?
How much butter do you like on your's Don?

@ Gunfreak.
Yes.

yes, yes,and yes (depending who you ask)

NO, yes, no.

I'd sit on the fence and say maybe. Then again, maybe not?

No no yes!
Settles into comfy chair and waits for Cacadores to show up.

The french didn't use columns….

oh no, they had char Bs. Thats why they allways won, they did allways win didn't they ? What's a column ?

I really think people should use the "Search" button a little more, the number of column vs line threads are more than one can read in a life time.

TMP link

TMP link

ya might wanna go through these to get your answers, if that is actually possible…

Shane

Nothing beats a good wedge.

Charging into a line with a column (especially if it has fluting and an extra-large Corinthian style top) would doubtless be an excellent tactic.

Sure, but what about Trajan's Column?

"Nothing beats a good wedge."

sneaking up behind the opposing commander and giving him a wedgy, yes

I don't know where to start with this one, although the recommendation to use the TMP search function is a good one.

Maybe it was in the beginning, the colonne d'attaque – formed from a line and to be deployed again into a line.

Later it seems that with a combination of skirmishers and battalions in line columns were used to brake through the enemies lines.

But there are no hard and fast rules on this, at Maida – at least 50 percent of the French attacked in line.

I think Von Winterfieldt has put this well.
Historians attempt to make sense of a mass of data by generalising and sometimes the generalisations take on a life of their own.
Certainly skirmishers also need to be considered particularly in the later period.

The French and deployed in line at effective range for muskets.

Which I have read from a Naploleonic Frenchmans (sorry I can;t remember what book) account that this was 150 yards.

At Waterloo they advanced in the old style because of the Generals meal where people who had fought Wellington before discussed how best to beat him at Mont St Jean.

It was decided (D'Erlon)to present a frontage where 800 muskets could fire at his line of 600, but when they closed and vollyed at 20 yards they caught the Belgian Militia in double frontage formationand dropped the two militia in greta numbers, and were through onto the back ridge just before the cavalry chopped them up.

Bgbboogie's mention of D'Erlon in this discussion of French columns has given me a great idea for a name for my wargames French commander who loves attacking in columns: D'Oric.

No, No, YES.

The weightier matter is salt, butter, or caramel for the audience.

Gunfreak,

I would say that the French didn't have an inflexible tactical/operational level doctrine on this. Napoleon is supposed to have prefered to see a brigade use an 'Ordre Mixte' formation, with alternating Bn's in line and column. The line provded the firepower whilst the columns the shock. It all depended on the tactical situation as they percieved it. If the enemy appeared to be shaken, they might not bother deploying, however, against a steady British line the majority of the time it appears the intention was to deploy, but because of astute use of ground by the Brits, the French never quite knew when to deploy, and often left it too late so that a brief attempt to deploy under effective enemy fire resulted in rout.

But essentially the decision of whether, and when, to deploy rested with the tactical commander and his assessment of the enemy's steadiness. Kinda like Soviet Motor Rifles doctrine in the 80's, where if the enemy was assessed to have been neutralised by the artillery/air fires there was no need for the infantry to dismount, they would all bull on through with the tanks.

Personally when I'm playing the French I prefer not to get into a line versus line toe to toe firefight with Brits. I've found its best to attack "a l'outrance" in column, because if you've got a decent set of rules the French should generally be on a hiding to nothing in a firefight with a British or Portuguese Bn. (The Brits and Ports made a fetish out of a high rate of accurate fire, whilst the French didn't, generally)

But as you will have gathered by now, this is a bit of a can of worms, and debate will rage for ever more. Which is great!

Kind Regards,

Sparker

>>>Sure, but what about Trajan's Column?<<<

That can only be used with my permission!

The French only deployed skirmishers, no lines or columns, 100% skirmishers.

Cheers,

The Bandit

What still puzzles me after many years into tactical Napoleonic wargaming and studies is the fact that the same French columns that often carried the day against continental foes regularly foundered under the volleys of the d****d British line. Superior musketry training of a small, professional army. But weren't the pre-1806 Prussians as well trained in rapid fire (maybe many Austrian units too)? Does the terrain matter that much (and always) when considering the Brits' performance? Even in the late (1809-14) period, French columns often kept thrashing Russians, Austrians etc…

Gee, I just posted this in the Command Radius thread. Please realize that the CR thread has taken over the entire world and it and admiring sons-of threads are the only allowed napoleonic reality for the rest of our lifetime.

Down Spot !! Don't growl !!! Put your leg down !!!!

"
NEXT POST. Why you do not want to have a dangling end of line.

Let me make some comments on the horrible mismatch that happens when an unit is attacked on the end of a line by a column. Worse yet, if the end of a line being attacked from an exterior angle. The purpose is to support the wargame philosphy of keeping brigades in a close spatial association.

The conventional "wisdom" is that a line of battle will have all guns shooting at an approaching column, whereas the column will only have a few guns shooting. So there's a tremendous mismatch in firepower and columns don't stand a chance. What is missing from this is that a battalion in line is LONG compared to the range of the smooth barrel musket and that soldiers who are in LOB but far from the point of attack are not really in the fight. What's also missing is that if a column can hit the end of a line in some fashion, the advantage is all with the column.

I've run some analog calculations (a.k.a. drawing up to-scale little squares and different templates on an excel spreadsheet the size of a battalion in line and of a close column of attack) and considered a number of cases. For discussion here consider three simple cases:
------------------------------------------------------

[1] a close column of attack hitting the center of a battalion line of battle ("LOB")
[2] a close column of attack hitting the end of an unsupported line and
[3] a close column of attack hitting the end of an unsupported line from a 45 degree oblique angle, from the outside.
--------------------------------------------------------

The line of battle is 215 files wide and each file is 30 inches wide. Each soldier can fire at an angle of 45 degrees from his front (otherwise he blows the head off of one of his own people). The attacking column is 22 yards wide and 30 yards deep. Only the first two ranks can fire- actually I'll be counting the number of "files" that can fire.
----------------------------------------------------

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD AAA AAA
[1] If the attacking column comes directly perpendicular into the LOB with the center hitting the center of the LOB you have approximately the following proportions of the LOB able to fire.

AT CONTACT Many of the LOB troops can't get a shot at the column because they can't twist and fire through their own troops. 50 files can shoot at the sides of the incoming column at ranges between 0 and 43 yards. 25 files shoot at zero range. 35% of the defenders can shoot.

AT 50 YARDS 213 out of 215 files can fire. The ranges are between 50 and 99 yards. This is a good killing zone. 99.1% of the defenders can fire.

AT 100 YARDS 100% of the defenders can fire. The ranges are between 100 and 124 yards.

AT 150 YARDS 100% of the defenders can fire. The ranges are between 150 and 167 yards, which is getting a little long for the muskets.

=================================================

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD AAA AAA
[2] If the attacking column comes directly perpendicular into the LOB with the center hitting the end of the line you have approximately the following proportions of the LOB able to fire.

AT CONTACT 40 files out of 215 can fire. 18%

AT 50 YARDS 90 files out of 215 can fire. 42%
The average range is ~ 65 yards

AT 100 YARDS 136 files out of 215 can fire. 62% total can fire. However 23% of the defenders are firing at greater than 150 yards. This is very long range and largely ineffective. Only 40% are firing in the 100 to 150 yards range, which isn't that hot either.

The attacking column is only firing one eight of its files. (12%) but all are firing at the minimum range, not at a variety of longer ranges. Also as the front ranks get killed, they are replaced by back ranks who bring up loaded muskets. This increases the firepower.

===================================================

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD AA AA
If the attacking column comes in at a 45 degree angle from the side of the LOB and hits the end of the LOB you have approximately the following proportions of the defending LOB able to fire.

AT CONTACT 3.5 files out of 215 can fire. 9%

AT 50 YARDS 3.5 files out of 215 can fire. 9%

AT 100 YARDS 3.5 files out of 215 can fire. 9%

The attacking column is only firing one seventh of its files. This is 12% of its files. 12% is greater than 9%. The attacking column wins the gunfire contest on the way in. As to the melee, it starts off about 10 to 1 odds.

===========================================
My point is that any wargame rules should make an attack on the end of a line by a column be a really really bad experience for the defender. This will limit the "
zippy battalions" and force brigadiers and colonels to keep units together with flank support. A close column of attack should be able to curve around and hit the end of a LOB- it doesn't even have to be directly from the side or rear to be deadly. Put attacking skirmishers in front of the attackers to hide the direction of the column. Bad news for the defender. Pin the defender by moving another LOB close to them in front. Bad news for the defender. If the defending LOB refuses the flank, they have weakened themselves because the attacking column can hit the hinge and now the defender has a lot of guns facing empty space and not the attackers."

Bandit,

did those skirmishers deploy in a solid line?
Or did they leave gaps for the General Staff to pass through, in column?

Just wondering.

Yep: Brits +1 shooting in line.
French +1 charging in column.

Always was, always will be..

Lots of butter and salt, thanks. Save the caramel for my chocolates.

To answer the original question:

"total?" no. "100%?" no. "Never agree on?" probably -- or at least, not until pigs learn to fly.

Read Nosworthy.