"How Would ACW Troops Do In A Lost World???" Topic

Minie balls lacked penetration against armour or thick-skinned creatures like dinos. That's why black powder elephant guns were so big.

Mentally, the ACW only very slightly preceded the era of Jules Verne's writings -- his first three books appeared between 1864 and 1869 -- so the troops' mindset may not have been wholly incompatible with SF concepts.

Read Verne's Mysterious Island -- Union PoWs escape from a CSA prison in a balloon and are blown to a (what else?) mysterious island.

Interesting thread, but it prompts a few more thoughts.

Say your Union / Confederate company is ordered to go off down the road some way and do whatever it is they do. As they plod along they go through a fog bank. On the other side, they soon realise, its all different – no road, totally different trees and plants, even the weather, and thats before they spot something that the more well-read may identify as beasts not from these here parts or times.

My question is – how long before they realise they're not in Kansas anymore, Toto? Until they make that realisation [which is not by any means a logical leap], they are likely to keep doing things like rapidly consuming their ammo and supplies in the reasonable expectation of getting more down the road, following orders as if they apply, and doing things that are suddenly stupidly dangerous [going off into the woods for a crap, sending off a solitary runner to find the colonel, etc].

I suspect any hope of survival is less bound up with superior fire power than some people above would. In this sort of environment ignorance equals danger, but your average soldier isnt well-placed to become dis-ignorant in a hurry. Hitting a t-rex the size of a bus may be easy with the fire-arms available, but how many shots and at what odds to hit 3-5 dog-sized but much more savage ambush hunters that jump out of the bush at 5 metres range. Would they even register before inflicting horrible injuries or death?

My bet is that, say, 100 men – all reasonably well-stocked and supplied – would be down by 20 men dead or incapacitated within a week and the remainder would include many basket-cases who would not be coping at all. And they will have almost no ammo and are scrounging berries and meats that are a russian roulette of parasites, toxins and powerful emetics. My money is definitely on the terrible lizards.

BBB,

I think you hit the nail right on the head. The sooner 1) they understand they are not in Kansas anymore, and 2) the sooner they change their tactics and start rationing certain items that will not be easily replaced, and 3) the sooner they start relying on those among them who are more familiar with science outside of their everyday stuff, the better their chances of avoiding a massacre like this:

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CC

This game seems interesting:

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Wow! Just wow!!!

I mean, it looks completely nuts. You have to admire their energy and enthusiasm.

Hi

I think part of your pessimism is based on your understanding, not theirs. I was having the conversation with a "green" who was proposing natural foods, and I was explaining the concept of "canning" so that one had food in winter. This green, pontificating on lifestyles had no idea how one preserves food for winter or why it works! He heard "can" and saw "steel cans from a factory".

It is called a pro-active inhibition.

Every company would have several artificers. And they would have access to the tools I have now for making ammo. In fact, with my antiques, I DO make my ammo out of original field tools. In fact, in the day, what did you think some farmer in outer nowhere DID when the nearest suttler was weeks away?

I have friends who were exposed to these ideas by reading "little house on the prairie" to their kids. The author does described the day to day technology of survival in the books including dad making ammo.

These issues were common fare for these guys.

Now, a T-rex…who knows? The elephant gun issue mentioned above is predicated on the gun killing a charging elephant by driving a bullet through the forehead which is a very different structure than a head shot, or heart shot elsewhere.

As for smaller raptors. I have seen that movie as well. But Hollywood doesn't get much right, does it. Do you really see these ambush pack hunters as being effectively different than wolves……..which have bigger brains?

Rocky

>"My question is – how long before they realise they're not in Kansas anymore, Toto?"<

As soon as the world changed from B&W to Technicolor!

Rocky, you're right that if you have the tools and the materials you can do a hell of a lot while your supplies hold out. But those supply chains are severed in our scenario, unless you go the Robinson Crusoe stranded-in-nature's-supermarket route.

About 300 miles from me is an inexhaustible supply of lead, which, if I was of a mind, I could go to as part of the process of making bullets. But, if I was in the middle of a different and unknown place I could not say whether there was lead there or close by, or in what direction. And that goes for every material required for survival – it requires either getting something out of the ground or making it from scratch, and finding it and making it up from first principles.

Out of interest is there anywhere on the WWW a list of what an ACW period infantry company carried in the way of stuff like tools, spare bedding, tents etc.?

Even if a small dog-sized [not Hollywood-inflated] velociraptor inflicted no more damage than a guard dog [debatable], that would be debilitating and stop the person doing something they needed to do, like walk or forage or hold a weapon.

"Even if a small dog-sized [not Hollywood-inflated] velociraptor inflicted no more damage than a guard dog [debatable], that would be debilitating and stop the person doing something they needed to do, like walk or forage or hold a weapon."

A flock of them could be a problem:

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It wouldn't look as dramatic as these next images, but the effect would be very similar:

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In packs, they must have been amazing:

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Some might call it death by chicken, but it is death nonetheless.

CC

More "death by chickens":

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Hi

I expect one of the re-enactor sites do cover those things. All I am pointing out is that they lived in a different world than we do. And while I have chosen out of curiosity to understand the knowledge base on the field involving people like trappers, I am not usual. But much of your concerns ignore that they were.

I aquired some of the tools for fun.

It is currently popular to romanicise the raptors. But they aren't unique. Again, in their day, rabid dogs….

This wouldn't be unique or appreciably different. Modern day troops have these problems. But some guy who grew up in rural Ill. splitting rails and living off his hunting and fishing isn't going to have a transition problem.

R

This is an interesting site:

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Cool illustrations of ape-men:

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Hope this inspires.

CC

Oooo, now you can buy a T-shirt, done with that "antique" photo:

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I would love mine to include the following quote underneath:

"How Many Pterodactyls Did You Kill In the War, Grandpa?"

Of course, I'm stealing that from this "article":
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PS. This is too cool:
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Looks like someone has the same idea for a game:

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The troops might stand a chance in open country but fi the dino beaks cover you have the fear factor anf it they aim at the head then that is a small target.

As for tech, they may KNOW about making metal, first they have to find it smelt it and maybe even forge it.
but I cannoyt see it being used for anything more than swords pikes and axes
(How do you make the file to work the metal or the lathe to replace a barrel of a gun? )

Great discussion. Despite the historical accuracy questions, why do I get a bit of a shiver from mentally picturing an officer yelling the order "Bayonets!!" to his men facing a (small) pack of advancing raptors?

DuncanIdaho,

If they were even half as bad as they are portrayed in film, the raptors would make mincemeat out of men with bayonets. It would be suicide.

If they ran out of ammo, a strong pike formation might be a better option, since you don't want those razor talons anywhere near.

CC

One thing that no one has pointed out that (from what I recall) was true of the civil war, was that companies, and sometimes full battalions were recruited from the same areas and kept together. I believe that this was fairly common practice until late/after WWII. Thus, the 54th Mass would have all been men from Mass., likely within the same counties. While you would have folks with a variety of trades/skills, I don't think that within a "typical" 100 men, you would likely have all of the right skills.

Farmers, yeah, likely from most places. Maybe not from New York or Pittsburgh.

Again, if you got your men from a highly urban area, you might lack the right skills to make bullets, powder, etc.

Still, all in all, it makes for some great ideas for game scenarios and campaigns. :)

Great discussion so far. Looking foward to seeing where this all leads…

Also,depending on who the commander was,Jackson,Lee,Grant,Thomas,Sherman,Cleburne might do OK. Bragg,McClellan,Hooker,Hood;who could say?

Those mutineers from the Bounty didn't fare so well on Pitcairn island, and that was WITH women and WITHOUT dinosaurs!

It would take so much time and energy just to stay alive in a basic way, and that's without getting injured or sick, that I have to think it would be the death by a thousand cuts for our gallant band, no matter how resourceful or ably led.

As an aside, I remember reading a sci-fi story somewhere about time-traveling hunters, and it brought out some fascinating points about just how massive a big dinosaur would be -- once you kill it, it's murder to render it down to manageable bits, and the carcasss begins to spoil long before you can finish. And it almost immediately begins to attract carnivorous scavengers, which just compound the danger to the hunters. Our hunters wouldn't be able to stay near any really big kill for long without becoming under siege.

Piper909: "And it almost immediately begins to attract carnivorous scavengers, which just compound the danger to the hunters. Our hunters wouldn't be able to stay near any really big kill for long without becoming under siege."

That's something I've always wanted our prehistoric gaming rules to simulate.

Imagine this: "Yes. We've made your kill. Now, while a couple of you cut fast, the rest of you watch out for the beasts."

From one of our group rules:

"Once the animal has been killed, the tribe must take the carcass/tusks or what ever you decide back off the table edge that they entered. At this point all encounter rolls are made requiring a 5-6 for an encounter to occur (representing carnivorous animals, scavengers smelling the blood)."
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Hexx started a cool thread on an alternate history park, with dinos and ACW:

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Well, if anyone wants to do this with 15mm Cowboys . . .

Blue Moon has 15mm Cowboys now!!!

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Dan

I haven't tried this yet, but do you guys think this THW rule set would work for ACW vs Dinos?

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Dan
groups.yahoo.com/group/cavewars

Imagine this little fella (18.5cm) swimming around in the waters:

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Dan
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I know that this was done for a Vietnam game but, if you imagine it without any buildings or vehicles, I think it could inspire a fantastic Lost World gaming table:

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Don't you think?

I really like that tall cork bark mountain.

Dan