"Why are WW2 rule sets either skirmish or brigade levels ?" Topic

It seems to me there that apart from Battlefront WW2 nearly every ww2 rule set is either at the one base = 1 vehicle or 2 to 6 men (skirmish level) or the one base = 1 platoon (brigade level).

So there seems to be this huge jump from commanding a company or so (FoW and many others) to commanding multiple battalions (BKC and many others)

I realise many sets can be played using the equivalent of a battlion only -- but for the skirmish rules that is a pretty big game, and for the platoon rules a very small one, and neither type is specifically aimed at that level of game.

Yet the battalion was the basic unit in all armies which was exppected to conduct operations and was generally the level at which supporting arms started to appear significantly.

So – why don't more WW2 rules set out to make this their basic sized game ? ie say 30 to 60 bases of infantry/tanks or whatever representing a battalion.

seems odd to me.

"It seems to me there that apart from Battlefront WW2 nearly every ww2 rule set is either at the one base = 1 vehicle or 2 to 6 men (skirmish level) or the one base = 1 platoon (brigade level)."

Megablitz – 1 base is 1 BATTALION!!
link

A common vocabulary might help reduce confusion:

TMP link

I'd say this is about where Command Decision (CD) I and II play well. Generally it is a reinforced battalion. A common force for us might be an infantry battalion with 1 or 2 tank companies and perhaps a company of assault guns or tanks destroyers or perhaps armored cars. Sometimes the attachment could be a copy of engineers. In case you are unfamiliar with the rules, CD has bases that = one platoon. Most of the time our highest level of command on the board was a battalion commander. When something approaching a regiment (US) size force was on the table it was too slow. I don't know if that is true with CD III or IV.

Rich

With 1 stand = a squad -- you will have your 30-60 bases = a battalion, won't you?

British battalion 12 rifle platoons, each of 3 sections, and a small HQ section. And 4 support platoons, with 6 AT guns, 6 mortars, 13 carriers, and 3 engineer vehicles. Plus 5 company HQs and Bttn HQ. Would be 36 inf + 6 at + 6 mortar + 13 carrier + 4 carrier inf + 6 pioneer + veh + 5 Coy HQ + 4 for Bttn HQ = 79. A bit higher than what you want, mainly due to the large carrier platoon which was unique to the Britsh. But certainly around what you are looking for.

IIRC FoW is at this scale, and BKC can happily be done at this level.

A common vocabulary might help reduce confusion:

Any set of definitions that classifies Crossfire as "Armour skirmish" is ridiculously flawed, in my opinion.

But you're right, Stevus is using definitions I'm not used to seeing.
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Tim

For me "skirmish" is 1 tank = 1 tank and 1 man = 1 man but each man is based individually so a section is 8-10 bases.

Company level games tend to have one base = a fireteam so a platoon becomes 8-10 bases.

If you take the logical step of 8-10 bases = a sub unit then for battalion level games a company needs to be 8-10 bases so a platoon should be 2-3 bases max. In practice this seems to be changed to a platoon = 1 base which simplifies things but works.

Personally the moment a WWII game gets beyond 1 tank model = 1 real tank and 1 figure = 1 man (individually based or in a squad) my interest goes away as I might as well be playing a board game and I have a lot of good ones to play.

We use Charles Grant`s "Battle" set from the late 1960s.

8-12 figures represent a platoon

3 "platoons" + HQ = company

3 "Companies" + support = Battalion

A US infantry infantry company is 44 figures

A complete battalion (with AT, MMG, Mortars, communications, security detail, etc) is nearly 200 figures…….

Works for us :-)

"So there seems to be this huge jump from commanding a company or so (FoW and many others) to commanding multiple battalions (BKC and many others)"

Not really. Many of the 1 stand = 1 platoon games work better at battalion level, others are better at division level.

I can think of numberous rules for each category where one stand is:

a) an individual (there are lots of these)
b) a group or fireteam (these are less common, FOW, WRG, PBI)
c) a section/squad (even less common, Crossfire & ??)
d) a platoon (there are lots of these)
e) a company (less common but not that unusual)
f) a battalion (bizarrely, there are a lot of these)
g) a brigade (probably the most unusual)

Depending on complexity or structure these may be suitable for anything from 2 down play (e.g. Crossfire where ideally you command a company of sections or Megablitz where you command a division of battalions) to 4 down play (e.g. Spearhead where can command a division of platoons).

To field a battalion I am a lot happier playing something like Command Decision with platoon sized bases, for a full brigade you want something fairly simple with platoons or somethng a bit more complax with company stands.

I Ain't Been Shot, Mum is a company level game.

VB

RF2 is several battalions with stands equaling a squad. Crossfire, PBI, many others that fall between these parameters.

Yet the battalion was the basic unit in all armies which was expected to conduct operations and was generally the level at which supporting arms started to appear significantly

Amen to that !

QUOTE MARTIN RAPIER
a) an individual (there are lots of these)
b) a group or fireteam (these are less common, FOW, WRG, PBI)
c) a section/squad (even less common, Crossfire & ??)
d) a platoon (there are lots of these)
e) a company (less common but not that unusual)
f) a battalion (bizarrely, there are a lot of these)
g) a brigade (probably the most unusual)
END

I lumped a) and b) together in my initial post due to be being generally unfamilar with that level of play (i use micro armour)

But your list highlights exactly what i was trying to say -- there are many well known rules at the a) b) and d) levels but not so much at c).

As Jameshammy points out c) would mean 2-4 bases a platoon, 8-12 per company and so on. There are a few rules that do this level but not many compared to lower and higher levels of play. Yet to me it seems a good compromise between the detail of skirmish/fireteam bases and the abstraction of platoon bases.
So i guess i just dont understand why it is not as popular !

@Fred – I believe FOW british infantry battalion would be a LOT more bases than you indicate..an infantry platoon is 9 bases with the game aimed at commanding a company or so isnt it ?

Stevus,
I'm with you on this, FOW bases represent sections,
not squads (which are represented by two bases).

There is at least one rule which IMHO does exactly what
you're looking for, but sadly, it's in French
blitzkrieg.fr
Bases represent squads or support weapons (one mortar,
one gun piece, two or three MG's,etc…)
One squad in each platoon is considered HQ, and coy HQ's are represented by one base too.
A typical WW2 infantry coy is then about 10 to 15
bases strong (3x3 or 3X4 rifle squads, 1 CO base,
and 1 or more attached support weapons base)
Difference between three and two MG's base is
made through ROF (3xD6 or 4D6)
Specialists teams (sniper, arty observer, AT weapons)
are based apart from rifle squads, possibly with fewer figurines and smaller bases (2 figs instead of 3/4)

Command distance within platoons is 2", and fire range
is divided in two halves (medium/long).
A rifle squad range is 12"/24", 16"/32" for MG's, etc…
As gaming area is mostly 4' by 6' large, there is no
range limit for guns, but a malus at hit rolls by 12"
or larger fractions, depending on the bore type.
Heavy artillery support is usually considered off-table.

Isn't the problem here one of perception though? Skirmish rules are 1 figure = 1 man, individually based & involving perhaps a platoon a side. Most of the rules listed here ARE most suitable for company to battalion sized actions IMHO.

BKC can be played at 1 stand = 1 section or = 1 squad & the standard sized forces is around battalion strength when used at the lower level, much as with BFWWII.

FOW rules use a (heavily) reinforced comapny as their standard 'army' size. Russian FOW players do command a battalion. Ignore points limits & use historical T,O&E lists & it's not hard to use FOW for battalion sized actions (leaving aside the limitations of the rules).

If you want 1 base = 1 section then BKC fits the pattern nicely.

FOW rules use a (heavily) reinforced comapny as their standard 'army' size. Russian FOW players do command a battalion. Ignore points limits & use historical T,O&E lists & it's not hard to use FOW for battalion sized actions (leaving aside the limitations of the rules).

True enough, even 1/1 doesn't forbid battalion scale actions, provided one has guts, time and room to do
so, yet Stevus pointed out that he was looking for
30 to 60 bases strong battalions rules.
If you stay with 'pure' FOW scale set up (and historical TO&E's), a coy alone would be around 40 bases strong.
This said, I'd suppose that FOW could be played at
1 base = 1 squad scale, though I can't comment about the game mechanics if going this way.

If you want 1 base = 1 section then BKC fits the pattern nicely

In my understanding, Stevus has rather 1 base = 1 squad (= 2 sections)

There are quite a few that fit C.

Rapid Fire has 8-12 figures or stands equal to a company.

Mein Panzer has 1 infantry stand equal to half a squad or roughly a fire team.

Ambush Blitz has 1 inf stand equal to a squad.

These just off the top of my head.

battlegrouip panzergrenadier has a platoon represented by an hq section and a further 3 bases each representing a section. vehicles represent 2 or 3 vehicles or half platoon size.

If you are going to go beyond 1:1 gaming I see no reason to stop at 1 stand = 1 platoon. You're still way done the chain of command. With 1 stand = a company you need about 50 stands to represent a single division. With 1 stand = a battalion you need about a dozen or so. I am waffling between the two levels and will probably go with one of each. How many figures/models go on a stand depends on your ground scale and your figure/model scale.

I think maybe there is a problem when making a stand = a squad, because of weapon distributions.

An individual or fire team has defined weapon, be it MG, AT-weapon, rifles, etc. No issues.

A platoon can be assumed to have a certain number of these things, spread among its members.

But a squad will maybe have an MG, maybe not. Maybe a Panzerschrek, maybe not. So gaming with a base = a squad makes for difficulties about what weapons to assign it.

Mark,

But a squad will maybe have an MG, maybe not. Maybe a Panzerschrek, maybe not. So gaming with a base = a squad makes for difficulties about what weapons to assign it.

IMHO, not more than a platoon, you just have to take into account available weapons in ROF/range specs. depending on the type of target.

In FOWv2 for example, two different sections (teams) ratings can be abstracted in only one, like one section with LMG and the other without share the same ratings for ease of play.

Likewise, at 1 base = 1 squad scale,
you just have to give different ROF/range depending
on the type of squad's equipment.
For instance, squads without LMG's belong to one type,
squads with 1 LMG's belong to an other, etc…
Squads with two LMG's (like PzGrenadiere) are yet an other,
squads with MP are an other too,etc…
In BK, there are only a handfull of ratings for
infantry squads :
- milicia : poorly trained infantry squads
- reserve : infantry squads without LMG's
- line : infantry squads with 1 LMG
- heavy infantry : infantry squads with 2 LMG's
- PM : infantry squads armed with machine gun pistols
- assault : infantry squads mostly armed with automatic weapons, explosives, etc…
- snipers, AT rifles, Bazookas, Pzschreck are based 'individualy' as teams.
Pzfaust can be included in regular squads at a cost
and along timeframe.
They bring concerned squads dedicated ROF/range upon
armored targets.
PM and Assault squads both enjoy dice bonus for close
combat beside their higher ROF.

WW2 platoons were mostly made of similarly equipped
squads, so all squad bases within a platoon act
likewise.
At the level of abstraction gamed, both 'plain'
US, British and German squads share the same 'line'
specs, with a ROF dice roll of 2/1xD6 and 12"/24"
range.
If moved, they loose 1 D6 in ROF (cannot fire over 12")

People mean different things when they specify "level"; among other things, they could mean what a stand represents or what level of command is represented. I prefer the latter definition. When someone says "company level rules", unless the author states otherwise, I assume the writer is putting the player in the role of a company commander.

A military commander is concerned with the details of disposition of his subunits one level below his level. A company commander is concerned with the details of how platoons are deployed and what they are doing. He is also concerned with the general disposition of subunits one further level down. Thus, the company commander is going to be concerned about the general positioning of squads, but doesn't give a toot about how the squad forms itself up (that's the concern of the platoon commander and squad commanders).

IN my opinion, that two levels down dictum should follow onto wargames design. If I'm playing a company level game, the basic manouvre unit, ie, stand should be a squad, not individual figures. If I'm playing a battalion commander, then the two levels down unit is the platoon and stands should represent platoons. If you are playing a division commander, then you need to have stands representing battalions.

Again, in my opinion, if you are not following the two levels down rule, you're drowning yourself in needless detail. Never ever in the field did the brigade commander ever show up to take control of my or other officers' platoons.

No offence intended to those who play games where stands represent fire teams, but I've never understood this. A fire team is a temporary organization within a squad and is not a permanent unit. A lot of wargames rules writers seem to think fire teams are permanent units – they are not and are usually formed as part of battle procedure and in the defence, are not used.
--
Tim

So, what are the names of rules sets which have 1 stand = 1 batallion?

Al

I think you may want a board game? I cannot recall the names of any right now, not having been in hex wargame hobby in a while.

It seems to me that 20th Century formations are too mixed to allow a "battalion" representation without a lot more abstraction than most miniature gamers want. When a battalion consists of three rifle companies of infantry, with a few dozen APCs, and some trucks, and mortars…the "single stand" gets pretty crowded. At that point, I think most people are gaming with chits (which is a fine way to game, by the way).

So, anyway, I think that's why you see so many rulesets for smaller formations.

And, in answer to your question, I don't know of any rules by name for the level you want. You might look at some old hex wargames for inspiration or conversion to miniatures rules?

"So, what are the names of rules sets which have 1 stand = 1 batallion?"

Megablitz
Division Commander
KISS Rommel
Hurrah Stalino
HoTT Modern
HoTT WW2
1956 British Army Tactical Wargame
Incoming
Assault Gun
Schwerpunkt (I think)

I'm sure there are others.

"And, in answer to your question, I don't know of any rules by name for the level you want."

As I said, to play a battalion sized game I am usually quite happy with platoon sized stands as long as the rules are reasonably detailed. A British rifle battalion has 12 rifle platoons, Bn HQ, mortar platoon, pioneer platoon and a carrier 'platoon' with 13 carriers (2-4 stands depending how you represent it. That is 17-21 stands to keep track of, which sounds like plenty to me, even without an attached tank squadron. Even a weaker German one has (roughly) HQ, nine rifle platoons, two MG and two mortar platoons (or one MG and one mortar and three weapons platoons).

It is certainly possibly to play battalion sized games with section/squad stands, I've done it with Crossfire and Squad Leader, but it can be quite hard work as it is a lot of of stuff to keep track of. It is even possible to do it with group/team based rules like WRG 1925-50 or PBI, but you need a fair amout of time, particularly if it is infantry as opposed to armour. Battalion sized WRG games used to take me all day, and that was using mixed infantry-armour combat teams.

There are some issuesd with section/squad representation, mainly what you do with individual support weapons. I can't say I've been very happy with any of the abstractions I've seen, although they are less of an issue for some armies than others.

Tim,
Understand your points about chain of command
issues but FWIW I guess wargaming as also something to do with eyes pleasure, or we wouldn't paint our armies, would we ?

If you are playing a division commander, then you need to have stands representing battalions.
Again, in my opinion, if you are not following the two levels down rule, you're drowning yourself in needless detail.

So according to you, anyone who doesn't mind to game
with more than 12 or 15 stands is drowning in needless details ?
With around 9 infantry and 3 arty battalions, plus other support units (recce etc…) this is what the average
WW2 infantry division will look like AFAIK
I'd suspect you would play at corps level if representing battalions with one stand.

There are some issuesd with section/squad representation, mainly what you do with individual support weapons

True enough, in 1 squad = 1 base scale, the decision if
it must be based alone or not usually depends IMHO whether this individual support weapon is rather under coy or platoon HQ's control.
If it's under coy CO control, perhaps it's better to have it based alone.
If it's under platoon leader control, have it included in one squad, preferably the HQ squad.

"I'd suspect you would play at corps level if representing battalions with one stand."

It depends. I'd hesitate to play something like Megablitz or the 1956 BATW with more than one division per player (I've even run the latter with one player per brigade) as there is quite a lot of stuff to kepe track of for each base, even though there aren't that many. I have run a Corps in Megablitz, but they were generally fairly weak, normally you'd need a team.

OTOH, something like KISS Rommel is very easy to run multiple divisions with as it uses full stand removal, not incremental losses & replacement. I ran four divisions on my own (three infantry and one panzergrenadier) vs six reinforced Russian rifle divisions and Tank Corps (also run by one player) last week.

It just depends how much detail there is. It used to take me days to play the Arnhem game 'Hells Highway' – battalion stands and only three turns a day, two Allied Corps vs (roughly) three German.

Games where one stand is a squad:
Battlefront WW2
Crossfire
Squad Leader in Miniature

You can also play 'I ain't been Shot Mum' with figures based like this, because individual weapons don't matter – just mark casualties on a roster.

Personally this is my favourite scale for WW2 gaming, because it is the lowest level to allow true combined arms stuff, but not so high level that detailed tactical stuff becomes less important.

Skirmish gaming can get repetitive unless a lot of creative scenarios are used.

A few years ago we released as Free wargame systems 'Crowns, Eagles and Oak Leaves' for large scale gaming with units representing companies. Some very nice ToE army lists. Each player would represent a Corps or Divisional Commander.

A variation of it for Strategic level gaming was 'Stars and Marshal Batons' in which case the unit on the board represented a battalion and the player a Divisional or Corps Commadner.

Most miniature gamers have more trouble adapting to this level than 'old' boardgamers do.

Rudy: I have seen C, E & OL, but where can I find S & MB? (And shouldn't that be Marshal's Batons? or even Marshals' Batons?)

Personally I'm mulling over the possibility of something halfway between the company-stand and battalion-stand level -- say 2 stands per battalion? My interest is in armor, and I would hold the infantry and artillery rules to bare bones (since I suppose they have to be included, if they really insist) and make air-ground participation an option at most.

BTW, free rules here:
link

"I'm mulling over the possibility of something halfway between the company-stand and battalion-stand level -- say 2 stands per battalion?"

That is pretty much what I do for my notionally 'company' based rules. Battalions with small companies (like a lot of Russian ones) only get a couple of stands, some might only get one stand. Battalions with fat companies OTOH get more stands.

The alternative is to model each company with a size rating, rather like an Shaws 'Div Com', but it is terribly fiddly.

"make air-ground participation an option at most."

At that level I just treat airstrikes similar to artillery barrages, but the plane models look pretty.

So according to you, anyone who doesn't mind to game
with more than 12 or 15 stands is drowning in needless details ?

Damn, I hate it when people point out flaws in my logic…

Seriously, though, marcpa, what I was talking about was level of command represented, not so much game size which is, again, in my opinion, another issue.

I play Crossfire and I wish my site was up so I could point to some of the large size games I play with it (but my web site is mostly down). I'm actually planning one right now with a battalion full of Soviets attacking a German flank (I worked it out yesterday, while doodling on a piece of paper while I was bored to death by a Human Resources session all day at work…). The game is focused on company level command decision making, but the Soviets will have three companies of infantry (plus on board mortars and a few other bits and pieces). I've played similar sized games and added a couple of companies of T-34s as well.

On game size, "12" is, I think, the magic number of items a person can best keep track of. I'm sure there's some game design principle that discusses this somewhere, I know there's URL, but of course, it's been many years since I read it. Ideally in a CF game, I like a person to be in charge of a company (CF uses squads as bases). A full strength company in CF is usually 3 platoons of 3 squad bases + 1 platoon commander for 12 stands plus a company commander stand and possibly two or three support weapons like MGs for a total of 13 to 16 stands.

And the issue that has come up here a number of times in this topic about how to handle support weapons etc in a system where a stand represents a squad. Here are some of my thoughts on this.

This is something I had a very hard time dealing with when I first started playing CF in 1999. I had always played 1:1 home rules (we called them "Driver, Advance!"), so a figure with a rifle was armed with that, an LMG figure had that and so on. Everyone had grenades, whether or not the figure was holding one.

Going to CF I worried about what to do about my LMG figures. I don't know how familiar you are with CF, but the squad stand represents a "standard" squad with small arms and an LMG or two. Because you are worried about company level decisions, you really needn't worry about LMGs and where they are, or how the squad divides itself into a fire team to pepperpot forward or where the LMG pit is in a dug in defence. That's squad commander and platoon commander responsibilities – as company officer commanding, you are in charge of where you want the whole squad positioned.

So I ended up with stands where I put two figures to represent the squad. Some of the stands might have an LMG on them, but it doesn't make any difference to the performance of the stand in the game. CF treats MGs as separate entities so they are based individually and are meant to represent a couple or three tripod mounted MGs.

The big issue that comes up is what to do about the difference (and this "difference" depends on how people look at the sometimes endless debate here on TMP on the effectiveness of the MG 34/42 versus Bar versus Bren versus the Soviet thingee, etc) nationally between squads. crossfire has some very good command related differences, but one thing I did to represent (I hate using the term "simulate") the fast firing German MGs was give their squads an extra coloured die. In CF, a rifle squad rolls three dice to fire and a 5,6 on each dice constitutes a "hit". What I do with the extra coloured die is say a 6 is considered an extra hit. So instead of the usual maximum 3 hits, the German squad is capable of up to 4 hits – 3 dice all with 5 or 6 and the coloured die with 6. However, a red die result of 1 takes away one hit from the other dice – to represent the ammo running out and reloading.

This was cute, but lately we've just been playing without the above rule and using the CF method of just giving the German player an extra MG stand to represent the large number of MG they sometimes had.

With respect to Panzerfausts – I usually say each squad has one or two (or even more) shots available and then that's it. Doesn't matter if the figures on the stand have PFs or not.

For Bazookas and Panzerschrecks, PIATS, I do something similar to the above, though I prefer it if the squad stand actually has a figure with the AT weapon.

Again, it was really, really hard for me to accept this abstraction when I first started playing a game like CF. But I love it now.
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Tim

Tim,

Thanks for the explanation, guess we're after the same kind of 'game-feeling' but I have to disagree with this :

"12" is, I think, the magic number of items a person can best keep track of

Mind you, I can't even keep track of my wallet, mobile phone, car and home keys without forgeting one or the other,
and there are only 4 of them !
….And I don't even mention various 'important' anniversary
dates
Wife always tell me 'how can you be so much in history and forget about this or that ?'
My only (admitedly feable) answer is : 'I remember what I'm interested in !'

I can remember anniversaries. What I have trouble with is connecting that with what day it is now.

Speaking of which that famous patient who had his hippocampus removed in experimental surgery for his seizures back in the 50s just died. They always referred too him by his initials, but released his actual name on his death. fascinating story – he could remember everything up to his surgery, but afterward couldn't retain anything – within minutes after meeting him you were a stranger to him again.

Talk about wandering off a topic…. Sorry
--
Tim

but afterward couldn't retain anything – within minutes after meeting him you were a stranger to him again

Sounds like usual car and real estate seller or building contractor procedure to me
Wouldn't have guessed so many guys had their hippocampus removed

I thought the Hippocampus was a place in Africa where the hippopotamus receive their higher education…

Griefbringer

No, no, Hippocampus was a famous battle of the 2nd Punic War!