"Aufklarungswagen Neu - der Aufklärungs-Stelzenpanzer " Topic

I'll say it again.

WWW2 isn't sci-fi or fantasy, it has links to sci-fi but its not sci-fi (it has no links to fantasy), it also has links to pulp and WW2.

Why then should it be posted on sci-fi and not on WW2, its links to WW2 are stronger than to sci-fi.

The difference seems to be, we on the sci-fi board welcome crossposts, you don't. Feel free to complain, we'll feel free to ignore you.

Dear Praetor XII:

It's not WWII ie the one in the history books and that is what this board is about. Once you get into zombies ,artians et all it's sci-fi. Funny nobody is calling the sci-fi people elitist or narrowminded. Your're deluding yourself and you guys need your own board then. I think IMHO that you are spliting hairs. Again from me just because you use WWII props does not make it HISTORICAL WWII and that is what the stock in trade here is. Why isn't it sci-fi not enough science? It sure is fiction! The age of historical gamer passivity and apeasement has ended! Post on the sci-fi board. I say go over to the sci fi people and plead your case. This is board is historical WWII ONLY. Either post somewhere where you are welcome,and more appropriate for or get your own board. I pledge to all that can to help and I hope the other peolpe who agree with my point of view will write to bill to help you get your own board.

Your're in the UK and may not be aware that here in the states we historical gamers had to almost literally fight to get our own convetions. Historicon started in a parking garage to get away from the fantasy/sci-fi gamers. That was our Lexington and Concord.Fantasy and Sci fi dominated here through the early 90's. Only recently has historical gaming become more prominant in the gaming culture and thats from a lot of hard work oh ok thank you "Saving Private Ryan". So some of us historical guys (The Old Ones)are bit sensitive. We (gamers in the US) have seperate historical only clubs like the one I belong to,NO fantasy or sci-fi at all. we did 3 gaslight games and we almost had a walk out.(guess who was at the head of the processsion? :>)) So at least in my neck of the woods all gaming is not the same and are not mixed we do have seperate historical,scifi and fantasy gaming societies, clubs, and conventions. Maybe that's maybe why you are a bit chargrined at my reaction to you because you are not aware of all this. Mybe you belong to a gaming club and you play anything all fine and dandy. It's a different culture here in the Darklands (MUUUAAAHAHAHAH)

So the Point is there are those of us in the states (and I suspect in the UK who agree with me)who feel strongly that all gaming should be thrown into the same stew pot. I don't know if it was you or some one else was saying there aren't seperate types of gamers. Well there are here and that is what perhaps unknowingly have run into. Also we have been haveing a creep effect of fantasy sci-fi games taking up more space at the conventions here and there is not a backlash in regards to that. Another buzz saw that you ran into. So don't take this personally #1 and #2 it's not narrow minded given the experience and background I have realated to want some seperate space just for Historical gaming and for what this board is supposed to be about Historical WWII land combat and related topics ie stuff that really happened or existed. so again to answer your inquiry off to the Sci-fi board wit Ye until we can get you your own boards. Now you want to talk about some REAL WWII your very welcome anytime.
Now I have to get those SS panzer divisions color chips. Where did I put them. HMMM? Ahh right under my 45!! (Yes I have a WII issue colt 45!)
CYA
Karl
(in the watch tower with the MG42)

So in other words, when someone posts something you don't think belongs, you will make a ruckus and start arguments that keep the thread at the top of the WW2 forum for weeks. I guess you don't realize that you could just ignore it, let people say "Nice job there," and it will disappear within a day or two.

Gents

First of, Thanks All for the nice words about the walker.

Karl, I understand your point of view and with all due respect, I do not agree with you.

As for teaching our youth a proper respect for history and the sacrifices our kin have made to ensure our freedom today, I would suggest taking up the matter with those who teach history. I applaud your goal of presenting a historical WW2 battlefireld in minature to educate with and wish you the best of luck in your endevour. Personally, I play with my toy soldiers for fun not education.

As far as promoting the hobby of gaming in miniature, I feel that well painted gaming minis, be they purely historical, pulp, sci/fi or fantasy, will encourge and inspire others to game, just as so many of the photos posted here on TMP have done to me.

Amalric

Dear Almaric et all:

1st off I not condeming you in any way shape or form as a gamer. I have no real axe to grind with you personally and you look like a nice guy in your photo. (I have read your postingsd elesewhereand I respect you. BTW the walker was nice sorry I didn't say it sooner.I have no real problem with fantasy or sci fi gaming or gamers ( Ok Praetor XII they are seperate and different mea culpa) just that I belong to a Historical gaming society and I don't want them taking over our (HMGS) conventions and this is a historical intrest board and i don't want it diluted with a bunch of non historical related postings. It didn't belong on this board that's all. So I threw a flag so to speak. Oh for Our UK/International friends thats refers to an american fotball referee calling a foul.
Let me address your points seperately.

"As for teaching our youth a proper respect for history and the sacrifices our kin have made to ensure our freedom today, I would suggest taking up the matter with those who teach history. I applaud your goal of presenting a historical WW2 battlefireld in minature to educate with and wish you the best of luck in your endevour. Personally, I play with my toy soldiers for fun not education."

I thank you for the kind words and good wishes. I also really want to underscore that "presenting a historical WW2 battlefireld in minature to educate with " is strictly my choice. I feel that this is part of how I enjoy the hobby. If you don't do it the same as me no problem, never said that that you should do any different than what you said. I have said over and over that I don't think lesser of any other gamer. I only said that IMHO if you have the same serious feelings about history it behooves one at some point to do a little teaching as part of the hobby. Again that is a personal choice period. I do wish to point out that a when I first started that the mind set we're discussing wass more common then. and now yours is bercoming more prominent. Remember what I said early in this discussion about a rift in the hobby? This is a classic illustration. So again in my 1st letter i was really trying to translate some of the frustration that some have with the "Personally, I play with my toy soldiers for fun not education." folks coming over to a board like this that is heavy on the historical research side of the hobby. We're at a different level with different goals than you we just want our space respected. BTW different should not interpreted to mean better just want to cut that off before it gets taken anywhere.

Point #2
" As far as promoting the hobby of gaming in miniature, I feel that well painted gaming minis, be they purely historical, pulp, sci/fi or fantasy, will encourge and inspire others to game, just as so many of the photos posted here on TMP have done to me."

OK the basic point well painted minis inspiring others to game is great! I'm sincerely glad for you that you were attracted to the hobby and enjoy it like you do. In general overall principal I agree. However the statement is really changing the subject and does not address the concerns or sensibilitiooes of historic gamers who want their own space and turf for just historic relates topics.
If this were a say universal miniatures bioard with no seperation by topic then I wouldn't have said boo.
BUT it's not. the TMP is divided into area that other people with similar intrest can meet and talk in. Also what i hear you kinda of saying (hey I could be wrong ok)is that quantity is it's own qulaity so that excuses any fdiferences between any genere or intrests. Thus according to you a lot of great looking pictures of anything no matter how ahistorical or whatever posted by anyone anywhere is justified because of the possible benefit it will bring in terms of drawing people in.

IF I am correct in this interpretation then I disagree strongly that in the proccess you so dilute what the hobby is and devoid it of any substansil basist hat it becomes about neat looking toys and frankly in the video age it ain't gonna cut it.

Essentially the statement is sophistry,(Bill Chuck take heed this is why all the ruckus) for the hobby to mean something it has to stand for something. Hence why I am a historical gamer. Historical gaming is a BIG chunk of the hobby and has it's own realities and perogitives. We historical gamers don't want all miniatures and gaming belenderized together ok? do you Almaric??

That is however unintentionally what you are supporting. Really think about it. What you and others like you have been saying in so many words amounts to this: All miniatures and games are good and the same thus everything should be posted anywhere by anyone who wants to whenever they want. NO! And I mean no to all miniatures periods and interests being just part of the same matrix of just being games. It becomes the equality of mediocrity. It's almost a weird version of socialism!

Periods and generes are in a abstract way the property of those who have cared enough to read about them,bug relatives to talk about the war with them,spend weekends going to obscure museums,buy the books,stay up late just watch a one time showing of a documentary on History Channel,some cases buty the uniforms and weapons and reanct the actual battles! Yes then buy the rules,the minis the terrain and risk divorce ,then spend hundereds of hours painting basing and long last setting up a game. So from the standpoint of all that investment of one who has done all of that that person can be said to have "bought" that period or genre historical or otherwise. I deeply respect anyone who does all that I regard all of you as a kindred spirit and a member of the gaming family.

HOWEVER this family is not a COMMUNE,we're cousins "living" in seperate houses ie our periods that we have invested so much time and love into. Thus from that stand point this board is part of my favorite period that I have "bought" it is part of my "house" in the wargaming world,it on a personmmal level is mine and all others who are invested in the period as I am or anyother as I have said previously. Now for some strange reason you guys want come barging in and say it belongs to everybody and how dare I protest.

It (this board ie WWII land combat) does not belong to everybody. It belongs to those who have done the work in the period run the games, researched the battles and/or have the drive and curiosity to learn and do more. I would say that would apply to every board on this site. If you care enough to play it and want to do more you are a member of that "house" so to speak of course you can like historical and sci-fi or what ever and be part of multiple "houses". But the "Houses"or another metaphor "Fraternaties" while part of the community are not communal!!

Just realize that each part of the hobby is unique and that gives the hobby it's overall greatness. The whole IS greater than the sum of it's parts but without each part being distinctive you would not have what miniatures is now.

THAT is why I fight tooth and nail to keep the integrity of this board. Our period like any other must not be diluted or bastardized into any others. Doing so will destroy the hobby. Each period is part of the hobby but it is unique and seperate. This board is part of our "house" respect it and you are warmly welcome. Try to turn it inside out and make it into something it's not and then claim it for your own you will be resisted as I am doing now because trying to dilute and dissolve this period or any other is a blow to the hobby overall.(especially the heart of it historical gaming.Like it or not historical gaming is still the core of miniatures) If it starts here it will spread and bring down the whole structure. It's as plain as that. Warping and diluting my period or any other must be resisted and stopped. You can play whatever you want post whatever you want in the appropriate non-historical area you wish but do not send the same stuff here and claim it is as legitimate as the stuff I have strained my vision on for hundreds of hours working on from blurry old photos.

Do not send sci-fi stuff here here say it's really WWII because of the paint job or whatever and DEMAND that I salute it. THAT is what has really ticked me off!! NO SIR! I will not yield! I will not surrender! I will not roll over for the sake of some ridiculous gamer kum-by-ya collective political correctenss! You have riled up the wrong old boy here!

But I will fight like Hell to keep what I and others love dearly from being melted into some trival nonsensical glop. There is too much of my sweat, heart.soul and love just to open the doors to this "house" and let strangers come in romp aaround and wreck it for their pleasure. That is why I am making all the "ruckus" I will not stand by and watch this part of my heart's delight(historical gaming) be cuisinarted into unrecognizable pablum and in the procces the whole minaitures hobby driven into extinction! That is what your short sighted hedoism is doing! I ask nothing more than than for this board to be let alone for those of us who want do Historical WWII. You want to come here and talk about the actual period,battles,troops.leaders,and post pictires of models of historic vehicles wonderful! Pull up a chair. your're welcome. You raise a ruckus show disrespect and start spraying the "ALL GAMES ARE THE SAME AND WE BELONG HERE TOO' graffitti on the walls you get shown the door in no uncertain terms. Respect who we are and what we value and love or leave.I am only asking that which wouldbe asked of me at other boards. Now which is it? It's time for someone to finally be a grown up and say NO and I guess it had to be me. I was seeing what was happening for years and I couldn't take it anymore. You don't like what I'm saying well it's like Harry Truman said. "They tell me give em Hell Harry! I just smile and say I don't give em Hell I just tell them the truth and to them it is Hell!! If it's too hot for you get out of the kitchen or this case the board. I hope the point is finally clear and we can move on.
Really Sincere
Karl Strohmeyer

The problem with that is it's not your house, it's not my house, it's bill's were both guests and your claiming ownership over a part of bill's house.

Last time Karl, it's not sci-fi……..that's the one fact you just can't grasp, and your dislike for non-historical gaming shines through for all to see.

If you want to protect historical gaming, recruit new members (most new gamers tend to be sci-fi or fantasy gamers) by incouraging them, not by denigrating another branch of wargaming and lecturing them on what they should be doing.

I was planning on buying a company worth of valiant miniatures of brits and german figures for FAD Bug War TMP link games i'm working on (by the way I view Bug War as scifi with WW2 elements), is it likely that they would have ended up in historical games as well………yep, historical games, the hostility you throw out isn't exactly encouraging me.

You could welcome the growth of WW2/Alt' WW2 and gently encourage those gaming it into historical gaming, instead you board up the door and scream GO AWAY! through the letterbox……….long term who do you think you're really go to hurt.

Best I can explain it

Alternative WW2 – WW2 with sci-fi elements.

Weird War Two – WW2 with Survival Horror elements or WW2 with superheroes which would be pulp? (not for me personally) or even WW2 with Sci-fi elements.

Bug War (which i'm working on) – Starts as WW2 with Survival Horror, moves into Sci-fi/WW2 and then drops WW2 as the time line goes on.

WW2 is the common link, I can understand your point but you can't seem to understand mine. A seperate board for all the above would be the best outcome, until then people will continue to post to the relevant boards.

Dear me, is this still going?

By John 54 I'll take your moral affrontage at face value.

Interesting, a very mild term, rendered incomprehensible except by intent/context by an automatic sensor, and you still find it objectionable. An interesting practial example of "If a tree falls in the woods…."

I advise you to procure a generic brand thick skin before venturing out of whatever ivory tower you call a home, lest you spontaneously combust in sheer outrage!

I find it curious that you choose to admonish only those you disagree with. This, I fear, undermines your credibility somewhat.

How about this as a cool-headed suggestion, perhaps posters should preface(? correct term?) their post titles with themes in brackets, used to be a common thing on the old newsgroups. IE: (WierdWar2}Aufklarungswagen Neu – der Aufklärungs-Stelzenpanzer or somesuch, that way those that arentr interested in such things can avoid it.

Praetor XII: This has little to do with finding solutions, its more about complaining about percieved problems and a narrow view of the larger world. A pity I rather liked By John 54's work. I also think we actually need "less boards" not "more boards", more boards breeds insularity and this sort of petty bickering over non-issues.

I suspect that some folk would like only "their kind" about, some sort of mutual admiration society. If you want purely historical discussion there's plenty of sites out there full of very knowledgable folk, be it modelling or TO&Es and orbats, or historical research. I will not have you turn this place into a backbiting clicky hell-hole, as you'll just kill it.

I'm asking the question on the pulp gaming board if they should be the main board for these topics, if so all to the good as i'll know where to look and i'll deselect the rest of the WW2 boards I currently have active.

I forwarded the new board idea as the simplest solution, not necessarily the best but the simplest.

Oh sorry, I hope you didn't think the last paragraph was directed at you, that was not my intent.

I still fear diluting the audience of the boards by continually splitting them up into sub-groups.

Don't worry about it CCollins………I don't see the problem with how things stand now, I never saw the need for a seperate board for Victorian Sci-fi for instance, but it's there and I think working without any problems. I'd prefer less boards myself.

Overlord44,

I don't think this is the community for you.

"Demanding…" "Ton of Bricks…" "Fight for space…"

Sounds pretty militant.

I understand the drive for historical accuracy, I was a professional at building historically accurate models and displays for a museum.

That drive doesn't universally apply to the WW2 boards. The drive for historical accuracy exists within the threads created specifically for it.

This has been accepted practice within this community since I have been here. TMP is a "big church" type of place without the demanding rigor of a more focused webgroup.

We like it that way.

I suggest you find a web community more in tune with your tastes for historical accuracy.

Guiscard

Is there a 'pulp' board……?

se

Blimey!

There is!!

TMP link

se

Yep, the links on the side of this page , i've a topic going on there at the moment discussing if Pulp should be the main place for this kinda of thing.

Oi, Oi, mr Collins, why are you chosing to smear me with your diatribe? I posted once, to agree with the intent of a fellow poster, and now your missive reads, to me anyway, to be one long slating of me, 'Moral affrontage' is a little strong for agreeing with someone, is it not? unless you, like me, couldn't be arsed with this a long time ago, and, equally, was surprised to see it still going! I suggest you look at whos been posting, ie, messers Overlord and Praetor, then come back and apologise, this, by the way, is Moral affrontage, oh, and its fewer boards, not less.

Cheeky begger.

John

Holy baby jebus! How did I miss this thread?

Personally, you won't catch me playing WWII that ISN'T weird. If I don't look at through the pulp/horror/sci-fi lens it is too horrific. For the same reason you won't find me ever gaming modern conflict like Iraq. I find it distasteful. But marines vs a manticore awakened when the Baghdad museum was looted? Yes, please.

And really, with all the weirdness that really went on during WWII, how can you not be interested in it? V2's, master-race garbage, Hitler's occult fascination, evil scientists, flying wings, nuclear bombs, the Amerika Bomber…where's the line? That's weird stuff!

Agreed, life's too short as it is – nice WW2 vehicle on legs by the way!

Let me see if I get this right historical gaming is fantasy but, fantasy is not science fiction and science fiction is not alt/weird/pulp/horror WW2?

Praetor XII et all:
You wrote: "If you want to protect historical gaming, recruit new members (most new gamers tend to be sci-fi or fantasy gamers) by encouraging them," I already do that. So in effect what you're saying is surrender and make nice and let us post what what ever we want cause we want to amd we just maybe might do some historical stuff if we feel like it.I got some advice for you don't ever come here (US) and try to do business in NYC(especailly the Bronx!) with that attitude! You'll get laughed out of town!
If they don't shoot you first. ;>) (yes that was a joke don't panic) Got to be careful bunch of sensitive dearhearts reading this board! :>)

I'll tell you what! How about agreeing that this board is a historic board and that only historic related posts belong here and I only see historic related posts from you and your brethren then I'll put away the brickbat? Meaning pay your dues show us your historical chops and I might be tech (that's redneck for touch) more forgiving. See further more detailed agreement at end of post. I'm just saying hey we have all these seperate boards what's the point of all this specialization if this one in particuliar can get stampeded by SS zombies etc. I'd love to see you try this stunt on the other historical boards. This is a community and all communities have rules well I'm letting you know what the rules are. If you you don't like said rules then it's not my problem.Please take tears and kleenex elsewhere. If you can live up to them we we can talk that simple. Please finish the rest of the letter before firing another hissy fit.

BTW I see you are talking to the pulp board folks Bravo! I think that is a consturctive course of action. I have kept my word and just before posting this message I wrote Bill describing the current debate and requesting a Weird War II board also. But if the Pulp fiction peopl can accomadate you Vaya Con Dios! :>)

Ok let me explain a couple of things and we'll move on.
I thought I painfully explained that the term"house" was an allegory,I used the term "our" not mine and it just a way of explaining how a gamer feels about his/her chosen period or GENRE-which can also mean nonhistorical. I also used the term fraternity ok?

That there is a HUGE emotional and financial investment. That the periods have certain ground rules and realities.
This board is an extention of that investment ie house in the HISTORIC WWII land combat period thus I was trying to trasnslate in a cogent aguement that to start making statements in effect "WWII is what ever we want it to be" to people who have strong feelings about historical gaming is disrespectful and I was in my rights to refute that and object and differ with non historical postings. That is not a radical idea. I was saying that my standing up for the principal of this board being a historic related board and that should be respected is an extension of defending my period ie house ie fraternity. You have yet to make a cogent argument as to why a Historic WWII board must aquiesce to your whims? In effect you want socialism (I am using an allegory pay attention!I am not saying you are a socialist)I am for private property and free enterprise ie you get what you work for and keep all that you earn. Hence this board should not just be turned over to people without historic interests just for the sake of their self esteem.

You wrote:
"You could welcome the growth of WW2/Alt' WW2 and gently encourage those gaming it into historical gaming, instead you board up the door and scream GO AWAY! through the letterbox……….long term who do you think you're really go to hurt."
Well my answer is 1st show the interest and curiosity then you get the encouragement.I practice tough love!What? We have to appease you and then you'll be good? NOT! What planet do you live on? You want all the goodies up front without doing anything to earn them. I'm saying go away because of this strident attitude that your alt scifi what ever you want to call it**(see below) is right to ever say anything is historic is wrong and we should all just lump it.That response from you and your comrades is far from gentle. My saying "go away "is a response to your one sided view that the way you see things is the way it is and our objections are uncalled for. . Wrong guess what? It's a historic board hence why the inivitation to leave. Again read on to see a proposed remedy. i said go away but i did not say I was locking the door.

**I say that not because I'm hostile to non historical gaming it's because you keep telling me it's not scifi. I think you don't weant to call it sci fi because it would cut the legs out from under your aurgement thus it's a dodge. You did refer to "We Sci-fi people" so you are a
sci-fi person make up your mind!

Oh and because I so mean and nasty now (sniff) you won't get any historical figures. Oh please! What you perceive as hostility is not. It is passion,heart,fire, and enthusiasm. We're being lectured on having to get thicker skins well look what happens when a few of us gets up on our hindlegs to make some sincre and impassioned arguements! You all bust out in tears crying about what awful meanies we all out because we won't just agree with you and say "Oh yes anything goes! Historical is meaningless and we should just let everything blend together in this Brave New Nonsensical Gaming Utopia"

You're just sore that you got some serious return fire in your direction and now you know there is some dedicated resistence here. Hey Life is tough.

You have yet to refute the substance of my arguements.Bottom line your stuff is not historic this is a Historic WWII board hence it doesn't belong here. You can't so go after me. That's how I know I'm winning.So why should I give in or go away now? (as per someone els'e suggestion) BTW about your repeated refrain that I am hostile towards nonhistoric gaming. This is what I really said

"So from the standpoint of all that investment of one who has done all of that that person can be said to have "bought" that period or genre historical or otherwise. I deeply respect anyone who does all that I regard all of you as a kindred spirit and a member of the gaming family."

Where is there any hostility? My dander gets raised from those who insist that nonhistorical gaming posts be treated like historic gaming posts on a historic board that "It's all fantasy and thus all equivlent" that to me is hostility towards historical gaming. As I said repetedly I don't care what you play just don't try to ram it down my throat and especailly not on a historical realted board for my favorite period.

So you're saying people can come over here and (from where I sit) trivialize and bad mouth historical gaming and that's ok and not hostile. But my fighting back is terrible and is now going to make you not want to do historic gaming? Then I don't think you were that interested in historical gaming in the 1st place if it all it took was some backtalk against your wanting shove your way into this board to scare you off!

This is the deal to all you alt Wierd War scifi people (and please stop it it is scifi! You scream about narrow mindedness and then turn around and commence the equivelent of how many angels dancing on the head of pin like arguement over what is and is not sci-fi.) Give us 6 months of straight historical postings models game reports questions ect. Put your money where your mouth is and earn it! Just like every historical gamer has always had to.

Hey in my 1st gaming club we had read books and write reports than have the articles reviewed at the meetings!Show you really want to be members of the Historical WWII land combat gaming community,that your putting some work into it and then once every so often after your probation.(like 1x every month violators will be called out) you can put some of your sci-fi props using WWII models on the boards. BUT don't ever claim it is historical or real WWII Ok? Have we got a deal?
Ok couple of small posts and I am really done with this.
Sincerely,
Karl Strohmeyer

What is going on here? I don't ever look at the fantasy boards, so I'm not sure why I'm even asking this. But what the heck is "fantasy" anyway? I consider a lot of what I do fantasy, but God help me if I accidentally post it as such. For example, I'm preparing to start a Viking campaign, but my inspiration for the scenario the murder of Charles the Good in Bruges (anachronistic and out of context) and the setting is based on the world of the Icelandic sagas (a mixture of history and literature). This to me is fantasy. I also plan to run an Old West campaign, inspired as much by historical events as by episodes of Gunsmoke or Deadwood. Again, pure fantasy. People are getting very touchy.

Fantasy… normally involves Jap chicks (well for me anyway)

My Poor Guisgard:

Let's go through this together shall we?!

Overlord44,

"I don't think this is the community for you."
It's a WWII land conflict historical board that is my period thus it is my community.

"Demanding…" I take it you didn't read my letters too closely. It was the sci-fi Nazi zombie/martian sci-fi peole that all historical context be abdicated and that this corner off historic gaming be fed into the great peoples collectibve generic gaming woodchipper. Not on the watch of others and myself. We will not have some bunch of people come in post something declare it's as good as real WWII and then tell us it's what we want shut up.

"Ton of Bricks…"
I already backed away from this. I meant that in future non appropriate postings to the board would be objected to forcefully. i promise no real bricks will be used.

"Fight for space…"
You are quoting me out of context. I was refering to the over all fight for space that historical minaitures in the US has had to win just to exist

Sounds pretty militant.
Well Guisgard Ole buddy lemme tell you,when some folks come in the back door get called on it and start pushing my friends and me around I can get pretty darn militant,ornery and gasp even ill mannered. I don't do conflict reolution,I'm a peace through strenght kinda of guy

"I understand the drive for historical accuracy, I was a professional at building historically accurate models and displays for a museum."
Bravo1 I hope to meet you and see some of your work some day.

"That drive doesn't universally apply to the WW2 boards. The drive for historical accuracy exists within the threads created specifically for it."
Unfortunatley reality has not cooperated with that lovely sentiment. More and more scifi gaming posts/threads that were throwing off the focus of the board. Eventually it would become a scifi WWII board thus NO realism! Unless some one stood up. A stand had to made and the leash tightend. Frankly you sound like you are just trying to justify apeasment. They can play and post what ever makes their li'l hearts content just do not try to make me accept it is equal to the historic stuff I have spent my whole life studying

"This has been accepted practice within this community since I have been here. TMP is a "big church" type of place without the demanding rigor of a more focused webgroup."

And what has that gotten you?
Without some guidelines and standard you get a big church full of what? Anarchcy and destruction of historic gaming by the mob chanting the mantra "It's all fantasy" 1st you educate THEN you include.
Other wise you invite your own doom. This is what others and myself are trying to stop.
You say a church well a church is about belief right? Then the church must have values and something it stands for or it stands for nothing and then just gets devoured by the ignorant.You can't have a church (hey your choice of words not mine) without faith in something better and in wanting to save souls. Thus you don't "settle" and you don't just throw upyour hands and say"Let them do whtever they want"
that's damantion not a church! Well the core belief of the church of miniatures is Historical gaming and it will not go down. Not while I'm alive and others like me and there are thankfully a lot still kicking. To what end does it serve to just let others come on to a historical board and essentailly say "open wide!" ?? The result is that we have to abandon in some cases a lifetimes work and belief that wargaming is partly about understanding and getting a feel for history and accept the fantasy brainwash. Again thank you no!

"We like it that way."
And how long have you been in the People's reducation camp?
Obviously you didn't read the protests of the other guys at the WWII 20mm Historic land combat board. I'm afraid there is not harmony in your utopia comrade. And you get to speak for everyybody by virtue of what authority? I have always said I and others like me I never presumed to speak for everyone. I speak for what is my heart and what I know from what others have shared with me and no more

I suggest you find a web community more in tune with your tastes for historical accuracy.
It's a historic WWII community as I said why can't it be historically accurate? Therfore why can't I debate and work to keep it historically accurate? Either face and defeat you troubles or they will chase after you. News flash for you! Political correctness (all games are the same there are no historically accurate periods etc blech!)on the WWII historic land combat board just bought the farm!! Sides I love a good scrap and I'm having a great time protecting the boundaries why leave now? :>D It's not a hard idea either post appropriate stuff or go where to the correct board. Why should anyone who believes that have to go? It should be if you can't accept that premise than go the right area where there are more people who share your intrests.

Karl (Martin Luther with the hammer)Strohmeyer

Dear Darly:

The ones with big eyes or regular? That kinda fantasy I can get with brother!! :>D
Karl

Yep, the links on the side of this page , i've a topic going on there at the moment discussing if Pulp should be the main place for this kinda of thing.

should have known praetor, there's enough 'pulp' figures available to buy, to warrant a separate board!

se 8)

The term 'Banging my head against a brick wall' springs to mind.

By John 54 you stepped in here swinging from the outset, and you got what you asked for.

You have gone out of your way to provoke me, which I agree is odd, the only other time I've dealt with you was I think I remember suggesting using the Italeri RSO for a project. Was the kit such a stinker?

Oh well takes all kinds I guess.

For me what it comes down to is this, will my posting Weird war stuff to the WW2 board break any rules……No, but Overlord44 and some other don't like it………So, don't read it.

Frankly reading Overlord44 post's are LOL funny, you need to drink less coffee and remember your playing with toy soldiers.

Oh and you might want to check the actual rules, rather than claiming people should follow 'your rules'.

QUOTE "Oi, Oi, mr Collins, why are you chosing to smear me with your diatribe? I posted once, to agree with the intent of a fellow poster, and now your missive reads, to me anyway, to be one long slating of me, 'Moral affrontage' is a little strong for agreeing with someone, is it not?"

The phrase "moral affrontage" refers to what you posted on the 4th of april and prior, at that point you were addressing me directly, I think you had issue with my vocabulary. I finnished my post with a question, which you answered with one word. That is what refer to, if that was in the mix then I should've made that clearer.

Wow!!!!

Having somehow managed to get through the assorted posts, my tuppence worth….

I don't play much WW2 but dabble occasionally with Blitzkrieg Commander and IABSM. I know next to nothing about Weird WW2, and to be honest it doesn't appeal all that much.

BUT… surely there might be some WW2 gamers who might read about Weird WW2 and be interested enough to try it [although perhaps not after reading this thread ]. There might even be some Pulp type gamers who embrace the one true path and try more historical games. Surely one of the points of sites like TMP is learn about periods/genres that you didn't know much about. Isn't that a good enough reason to crosspost.

I don't think that any of my 'historical' games are truly 100% guaranteed accurate [especially not after I introduced TinTin into a RCW game ]. As far as I'm concerned I 'play' with toy soldiers… yes I learn and research as I go along but it's a game!!! [although I draw the line at making tank noises when moving my units…brrrrmmmmm…well…usually].

…and please….NO MORE BOARDS!!!!!!!

I missed this the first time arround and just came upon it today.

I am not interested in is it historical or not, I just want to say, a great model – thanks for posting it.

Tony
dampfpanzerwagon.blogspot.com

Just clarify, it's not that Overlord44's posts are funny, its the fact that my brother keeps reading at his posts in his evangelist preacher voice ……….i'll follow the excellent advice i've received, i'll post as normal, clearly show in the title what i'm posting and ignore the complaining.

Praetor XII

As someone who does not partake of strickly historical gaming for the sake of "insert whatever drive keeps such a hobby/gamer going", I will say this:

If I were to seek the input of those who were speciallized in WWII for example for reasons of my own…Weird war conversions, aliens attack, mutants, or maybe just an extended war without the high science fiction or low science fantasy…I would post it on the WWII forum.

Why you ask?

Because if you want to see what elephant crap looks/smells like, then you find an elephant. If you want to taste Thai food you go to a Thai vendor. And if you had questions about accurate train modelling you go to the little old man down the lane with $15,000 in train envestment.

So with a WWII inspired model that someone, one of us, put together and was looking for input on the work and process of both the design and the effort a logical person would post it where the input was desired to originate:

WWII forum and most likely one of the Science Fiction forums as well as a few others that could provide some input like the conversion forum etc..

But you what? By going on and on about why this does not belong within your speciallized forum is basically peeing on the wall to mark your space…well number one point is this, it is not your space. It is not your site. In fact it is not your place to even provide your unwanted input.

I simple statement on the WWII elements within the context of the posting would have been the most mature statement you, and I mean of of you who are riding the bandwagon, could have made.

Why else would a person have posted a science fiction/fantasy model within the WWII forum?

Do you think this person spent the time to design, collect the parts, build the model, paint, base, and photo the project just to incite some inane blather about debasing the WWII community or insulting the TMP WWII Forum as a whole?

Use that brain you have and consider the reason it was posted within the WWII forum to begin with…that person initially wanted your (the WWII hobby/gamers) input on the related origins of the model project…nothing more.

All that really came about is to show that a portion of the WWII gaming community is uptight, high strung, verbose, and overall fairly difficult to deal with…way to go! I can not think of a better recruiting tool than to berate a person's effort because you felt the placement within a common use forum was inappropriate.

I am confident that your efforts to cleanse the WWII forums will generate many more WWII gamers.

Well done!

Now the the point of the original posting:

The walker looks well made and has a good balance which is tough with a two legged vehicle. Nice model, keep it up.

Looks great and nice photography work too.

Hey Overlord….

You're new here, so I tried to provide a viewpoint without attacking you and presenting the idea that TMP culture may not be what you expect.

And this is what I get:

Well Guisgard Ole buddy lemme tell you,when some folks come in the back door get called on it and start pushing my friends and me around I can get pretty darn militant…

…And how long have you been in the People's reducation camp?…I'm afraid there is not harmony in your utopia comrade.,

Right.

Here we go…

They can play and post what ever makes their li'l hearts content just do not try to make me accept it is equal to the historic stuff I have spent my whole life studying

So "'Ole buddy" (how quaint), your whole life's study comes down to playing with plastic army men? Sorry, but um', that's not an academic achievement, it's "it's playing with toy soldiers". One step above the sand box. Bravo on your life's work.

Well the core belief of the church of miniatures is Historical gaming and it will not go down.

Smell that? The whiff of pretention. Smells like old isolated curmudgeon.
Sorry, not here, not the marketplace, nor convention attendance is there any evidence to that remarkably absurd claim. How can someone who claims historical research expertise be so oblivious to modern trends? Oh, I forgot, you believe in the rigorous application of historical evidence to the interaction of plastic army men as an "Advanced Academic Discipline".

Hey in my 1st gaming club we had read books and write reports than have the articles reviewed at the meetings!Show you really want to be members of the Historical WWII land combat gaming community,that your putting some work into it and then once every so often after your probation.(like 1x every month violators will be called out)…

Gee, I cannot imagine why this club doesn't exist anymore.

A bunch of old guys sittin' around bullying the new guys about how someday they "might" be smart enough to really participate.

Woot! Where do I sign?

That's the direction TMP needs to go. You're a visionary Overlord44!

Guiscard

Someone wanted to see Germans with skull faces? The dreaded Totenkopf?

picture

Eihiem while off the theme posting, damn you pirate!, those Totenkopf are nice.

Matt

I Love your Skull faced Germans, their leader's skull is going to be painted blood red right?

:)
Amalric

:)

Just trying to inject a little humour

Nicely said 28mm Man!

Now off back to the fantasy forum.

"although I draw the line at making tank noises when moving my units"

Sadly I can't help myself, tank noises, airstrikes, artillery, MGs the lot. It causes a great deal of amusement at my local gaming group, as do my periodic mis-identifications of pieces of equipment. I'll never live down mis-IDing an AMX-13 as a Conqueror.

Ok I admit I do like to go "nyaaaoooow…..dakka dakka dakka" when playing air games!

…and I do play a lot of WW2 games while having no idea what the various types of tank, etc actually are… this may explain some of my results…

It's one of the reasons I like AK47…classifications there are suitably vague.

Oh, was that you, fair point, you did annoy me.
The RSO was a top tip, by the way, lovely kit, thanks for that.
I have now removed my support for Overlord, although I agree with his point of view, he's gone on about it soooo much, that I think he's a bit 'radio rental'

John

Hello All:
It's the nasy one again :>D Ok have we got our collective hissy fits and tantrums out of our systems yet? I hope so. Just returned to the burning rubble to make a few clarifying points

Praetor XII I'm glad I could make you laugh! Remeber though in comedy there is an element of truth! Still you haven't made a convincing arguement YET as why fictional related material/games/rules/models should be considered historical and be posted as such on a historic related board. I look forward to seeing your historical related posts/questions on German infantry TO&E ;>)
John 54: I really apologize. Like I said I'm done on this just here to tidy up some loose ends. Please don't worry about me going on about this ad infinitum. Radio rental? that's a new on I like that :>) maybe I was doing the whole Larry the Cable Guy thing TOO well! I hate to think I turned you off this is letter my final word on this . I'll just monitoring this thread to indulge my schadenfreude from any ensuing explosions,screams,huffing,puffing,tantrums or walls being bounced off of. To quote from Stalag 17(1953 with Glenn Ford) "Boy seems to have lost his sense of humor!" IE lighten up y'all and get a grip! Indeed life is too short! If this was so "la la lighthearted meaningless just all games without meaning" as you keep screaming at me why should you care so much what I think? Because there is some truth to what I say and it bugs you! ET LA Touche!
K moving on:

Guiscard You are so hopelessly wrong. (to quote Curtis Sliwa) Yes I am a curmugeon, coming from you that's a compliment and a badge of honor. Isolated uh no I'm married(many years), have full time job, active with my HMGS chapter playing/running games regularly,attend ALL the HMGS conventions with many freinds there ,seen commonly in public in daylight hours and also doing history presentations/events for Boy Scout troops. ;>)BTW I'm not THAT old I just make fun of my age (49) I don't study the soldiers/miniatures I study the history(also talk to veterans) and THEN game it out to see it in 3D what was it(approxiamently- realizing that's the best your going to get but it's better than nothing) like and what could have happened differently . Again Guiscard your're not fully reading my prior letters. Not that you really want to. That would mean you couln't talk down to me but I don't give a rip. Historical does not mean mirror image simulations. Using miniatures is just one facet and tool in furthering historical understanding and that's my choice that I do not expect it of others.
The club I mentioned is still around going strong over 20+ years . Lastly I'm pretentious remember so what would I be doing with plastic soldiers!! Actually I started with those and went all metal oh about 15 tears ago.

Again my poor befuddled Guiscard You're not listening! It's not about old guys beating up anyone it's about respecting what this board is supposed to be about.Becaus us hitorical guys of whatever age really care about this and why should it be run over just to make whoever else happy. I mean you got the Pulp fiction board so play there. This Historical WWII Land combat simple as that. I don't see what is EEEEVVVVVVIILLLLL about my wanting a historical board to be/stay a historical board.

Oh about the "if you don't like don't read it" comments. Here's the problem. if you ignore for so long as I was for several years it keep going on and on till gues what!? It's no longer a historical board and has been kudzu'd (creeping ivy weed found down south that if you don't pull out or spray can take over the side of your house in a couple of weeks) into a Weird War scifi whatever page with historical in the round file and the definition of what a period is reduced to what figures or vehicles are put on the table. That is a big problem from my view point as historical gamer who was schooled in the idea of distinct periods that people study and play in. You can play in any period you want. You can play any fictional fantastic imaginary game you want Wonderful! Just don't try to claim historic validity for a totally fictional genre it's because a your deluding yourself and B your also watering down the factual period.

Again we in this hobby have got a rift. We have one group that got started like i did interested in the history primarily and the miniatures came as an out growth of that. Now we got the games for sake of games people. which again I don't have a problem with on their own. Just somebody explain to me why A)must suddnely there not be any distinctions or clear definitions between historical and fiction based gaming? and B) what is so wrong about someone like me wanting those differences maintained? I still think that there is a cultural gap here like I said about how in England there wasn't the whole little struggle that we had here in the states where the historical gaming community had to pull itself apart from the fantasy and sci-fi communities.If there was such struggle and I'm not aware of it I apologize in advance. Being a veteran of that period maybe has made me a bit sensitive to the sci-fi/fantasy creeper effect and If i'm a bit testy about that that's the reason why. Nonetheless I still fell that it's valid for me to want those seperations between historical and scif etc to be maintained. I don't want historical gaming be merged into everythin else. I don't care what you play and yes Alamric's walker was nice. I alrady said that but just in case some people didn't see that I wanted to make sure I got that out there. Ok I'll just be going about my buisness now working on my research for my club's 09 Historicon game and have the ref's whistle and flag ready if need be CYA
Karl Strohmeyer

The problem is as things stand, there is no such seperation, there are no rules about which boards you can post to your opinion is that Weird WW2 topics should not be posted to the WW2 boards (which includes pulp gaming by the way), but it is only your opinion .

Guiscard You are so hopelessly wrong. (to quote Curtis Sliwa) Yes I am a curmugeon, coming from you that's a compliment and a badge of honor.

Then how am I "hopelessly wrong"? You just agreed with me and bragged about it.

Guiscard your're not fully reading my prior letters.

My post was done as replies to direct quotes given by you.
How else would I find them if I did not read your exhaustive pedantic ravings?

Again my poor befuddled Guiscard You're not listening! It's not about old guys beating up anyone…

So you start paragraph about how it's not about old geezers belittling younger hobbyists with a belittling sentence. My goodness, the prentetion just oozes doesn't it? Not to mention the behavior that starts with an "h" and ends with a "ypocrite" ‌‌

…folks coming over to a board like this that is heavy on the historical research side of the hobby. We're at a different level…

Oh, me and the rest of the unwashed are at a different level all right, but I bet we don't agree on which one.

I listen very well.

Guiscard

Praetor – "Dear Kettle… Yours Sincerely, Pot."

By your 'logic', isn't it only Your Opinion that makes you think that the Weird War II/Nazi-Porn/Adolescent Fantasy is acceptable on this forum…?

A fantasy, technologically impossible version of WW2 is by definition, Fantasy and therefore doesn't belong on a WWII forum.