"If you think early people crossed the Atlantic...." Topic

…waaaaay before the Bering strait theory could of taken place, than this site may interest you. neara.org is kind of a lay person's guide to helping prove that transoceanic contact with the Americas must of taken place. If you dig the new "Clovis Stone Theory" and like to hike, check this out.

Very, very interesting. Thanks.

I do like the concept of the "Kelp Highway" (for the Pacific), and even the possibility of European groups coasting the Ice Age glacier shelf. Heck, I even think it would be neat if they could prove that early Australians made it to South America . . . long before Clovis.

CC

Tim Severn wrote a cool book called "St. Brendan's Voyage" about his crossing the Atlantic in a leather boat back in the hip 70's. Wanted to prove that the Staint could of done it, like in the tales of his life story. I guess he had Kon Tiki fever!

I like the sound of the "Kelp Highway", do tell! Also read a book called "China, The Sea Kings?" I think it was called. About a large armada of Chinese boats that an Emperor sent to find the secret to immortality, and they never returned. Would that be part of the "Kelp Highway"?

On the "Kelp Highway", enjoy!

link
link
link

Lots more about similar routes along the North Atlantic too.

CC

The Australia theory:

link
link
link
TMP link

I may not subscribe to all of these theories, but I find them absolutely fascinating nonetheless.

CC
link

they could prove that early Australians made it to South America .

So, the early South Americans had a language that made extensive use of the word 'Oi' and most were named Bruce?

"If you think early people crossed the Atlantic…"

…then you too can become a Scientologist! Or a follower of David Koresh! Or take a nice trip to visit Guiana!

And there was something about golden plates you might be interested in…

Allen

According to one story I read is that the first explorers who went to North America in the 1500's probably had to run a gauntlet of Irish and Scandinavian fishing boats before they could make it to the mainland.

…then you too can become a Scientologist!

Wouldn't Mormon be more appropriate?

Quite right Pat, the cod fishing areas off the Grand Banks were well known and British explorers, under the Prince Madoc ap Meurig, arrived in the country during the 6th Century and set up colonies there!

Are we talking about pre-Columbian contact to the Americas from east, west or both?

It is pretty well accepted that the Vikings made it to New England 100s of years before Columbus.

Thor Heyerdal proved that trans-oceanic voyages could be made with stone age equipment like balsa log rafts and papyrus reed boats. That doesn't prove they actually happened. However it is obvious that people made it all the way to Australia tens of thousands of years ago.

If these things are to be proved I think it will come from genetic research.

Genetic research means they have to have living relatives and the original human remains, that is going to be quite difficult given the Native Americans claim that any old body is an ancestor and cannot be used for research.

(in case it puts their claim as first peoples at risk!)

1421 is an excellent book, they also have a website.

1421.tv

When I was teaching at a primarily minority school (African -American), several ethnic booksellers would visit the school during Feb. I bought several books on the inter-cultural exchange between Africa and South America long before Europeans crossed. They all made sense and were well documented with artifact samples.

>>Genetic research means they have to have living relatives and the original human remains, that is going to be quite difficult given the Native Americans claim that any old body is an ancestor and cannot be used for research.

You can trace matriarchial lineage by mitochondrial DNA, as well as find characteristic alleles in normal chromosomes. These tests do not have to be done on dead bodies. You need to find similarities between modern populations in different areas of the world, that are not explained by contacts since the 16th century.

The provenance of artefacts needs to be based on factors such as characteristic mineral types, radioisotope tests, tree ring patterns and so on. Similar looking artefacts can arise from parallel evolution. Step pyramids are found in Mesoamerica and Egypt. This could be because the Egyptians gave the plans to the Mesoamericans (or the opposite) or it could be because if you are a stone age culture and want to build a skyscraper you can't, and a step pyramid is the best kind of structure you can make.

"Wouldn't Mormon be more appropriate?"

Thus my reference to golden plates. My point was that those who enthusiastically adopt such theories might be candidates for other groups requiring the suspension of rational thought.

As Kilkrazy wisely points out, things that may superficially seem alike do not prove a common origin.

But for those who are compelled to grasp for the outre, perhaps buying one of these would be appropriate:

link

Allen

Good point about the DNA Kilkrazy but your point seemed to be about taking samples from living people and looking for DNA of past migrations.

My point was that if the first wave of migrants were exterminated rather than interbred with the new migrants then there would be no trace of the original population in the DNA of those living living now.

Look at the confusion over Neanderthals, some say there is no trace in modern human DNA, others say there is.

"My point was that if the first wave of migrants were exterminated rather than interbred with the new migrants then there would be no trace of the original population in the DNA of those living living now."

Ah. I guess it would be a waste of time looking for Nephite DNA, then. But Lamanite DNA ought to be present among Native Americans.

Who would we check to find pre-Adamic or Nephilim DNA?

Allen

Numenor (Atlantis) got sunk when the Europeans tried to come West.
I don't know how columbus got away with it like he did. Needs more research.

Columbus was just following the maps to find the Templars' treasure.

Allen

OK, kids; today's vocabulary words are:

- pseudohistory

- cryptohistory

- "baloney"

Allen

Or:

Thus my reference to golden plates.

And this, folks, is why you should read the *entire* post before replying. :o

What, and shatter a fine old TMP tradition?

No, you were not wrong in questioning. I was intentionally being a little more subtle and not lumping in Mormonism with Scientology and the others.

Allen

>>My point was that if the first wave of migrants were exterminated rather than interbred with the new migrants then there would be no trace of the original population in the DNA of those living living now.

>>Look at the confusion over Neanderthals, some say there is no trace in modern human DNA, others say there is.

It's true we have no living Neanderthals to take samples from. However my suggestion is to map DNA generally across the world population, looking for patterns of certain markers. If a first entrant population got exterminated, it still would have migrated from some other region where you might find genetic evidence in the modern surviving population.

It seems unlikely that first entrant populations would be exterminated. There are various reasons why.

1. Low population density reduces potential for conflict and allows persecuted populations to simply move away.
2. Lower risk of epidemic disease in ancient populations.
3. Invaders more likely to intermarry and enslave than simply kill all previous inhabitants.
4. Limited military technology makes extermination difficult.
And so on.

"If a first entrant population got exterminated, it still would have migrated from some other region where you might find genetic evidence in the modern surviving population."

but then you would have to find a body of the first people to find the DNA to look for in a modern population. If there is no body you will not know what to look for – that was my original point!

limited contact with Europeans caused wide spread epidemic disease in tribes in Brazil! It wiped some out!

What about the Clovis stone? This is the new theory saying that people may of come over the northern polar cap, before the Bearing Sea foot race. Back to the sea crossing theory, have you seen all the stone cairns, picto-grafts, America's stone henge, just to name a few. It's cool to wonder, as if ideas/theories never are disapproved. I just wanted to share this cool site with like minded peeps.

KYOTEBLUE-there is another book with the idea that the Navaho sand paintings are from stranded Chinese or Japanese monks….that their society has some heavy Zen qualities etc. Gotta dig that title up soon.

1421 is an excellent book, they also have a website.

Yah. You do know that Menzies and his book have been totally discredited by the appropriate experts, both in the West and in China. He is the new Erich von Daniken.

Ralph

Yep, Allen. Just like all the baloney about the Vikings in Vinland, until the sagas were actually proven later.

If science becomes crystalized, dogma, then there's no more science. Remember the Keeper of the Faith in Planet of the Apes!

Keep your mind a little bit open at times. I try sometimes and it doesn't really hurt all that bad. :)

CC

Allen,

Remember, some could easily say that the stone tablets on Mt. Sinai/Horeb was all baloney too. They haven't been found either (the second set that was put in the ark of the covenant – an ark which was never been found nor was it commented on by contemporary inscriptions either).

Or even if Moses existed or not . . . we have never found any inscriptions, Canaanite, Egyptian or other, to say that he did what people say he did.

CC

>>> Yep, Allen. Just like all the baloney about the Vikings in Vinland, until the sagas were actually proven later.

When I was growing up, there was never any question about the Norse reaching North America, even though the dig at L'Anse aux Meadows hadn't been started yet. The epigraphic evidence had been well explored, and a Norwegian coin had been found in a coastal site at Brooklin, ME when I was three years old:

link

And research since has confirmed plenty of evidence that the early (c.15th) explorers knew about the Norse voyages, although the knowledge/awareness was susequently "lost", much like the concept of a round globe: well-known among ancient and medieval mariners from personal observation, but ignored in the non-nautical world.

What I do find dubious are the numerous supposed Norse "writing" stones in unlikely locations.

>>> Keep your mind a little bit open at times. I try sometimes and it doesn't really hurt all that bad.

That sounds too much like a personal attack! There's a difference between critical analysis with an open mind and leaping after every crackpot idea like an excited puppy with a new leg to hump.

>>> Remember, some could easily say that the stone tablets on Mt. Sinai/Horeb was all baloney too. They haven't been found either (the second set that was put in the ark of the covenant – an ark which was never been found nor was it commented on by contemporary inscriptions either).
Or even if Moses existed or not . . . we have never found any inscriptions, Canaanite, Egyptian or other, to say that he did what people say he did.

Depends what his name was, if/when he was at Pharaoh's court. We might.

But how many times do I have to tell this story on TMP? Our rabbi and I used to go back and forth on this. I maintained that the story of Exodus seemed to me most likely as an expansion of mythical tales about a typical localized (mountaintop, desert bush) djinn who became megalomaniacal once he convinced some wandering hapiru to carry him around in a box. My rabbi countered that the story is more believable as an account of a sociological experiment (or really sick practical joke) on a bunch of wandering Bedu by some space aliens, than as a literal historical count.

Allen

LOL.

The fact is (the only fact . . . in fact) is that the multiple migration theory is the hip topic these days.

Something may or may not come out of it.

Still, it is neat to think of where it might eventually go.

CC

By the way, there are people who maintain that the c.6th Prince Madog came to North America:

link

link

And there are people who maintian theat the c.12th Prince Madog came to North America (which, as you've seen, the c.6th proponents claim as fiction!):

link

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc

But I've never heard of either one establishing colonies in the Grand Banks. That would be rather a good trick, what with the depth of the water…

Allen

"The fact is (the only fact . . . in fact) is that the multiple migration theory is the hip topic these days."

Well, I take no issue with the Kelp Highway concept. And multiple migrations are sort of a no-brainer as far as I am concerned, because the alternative is this:

link

That seems seriously flawed on the surface. One would have to look at the population they're actually looking at, since the statement:

"Hey focused on the genetics of Amerind-speaking populations, one of three major language groups in the New World representing the earliest migrants who extended deep into the Americas."

…taken at face value, indicates an appalling lack of knowledge about the incredible diversity of native languages in the Americas. The first source I can reach and look at indicates (from 1985, so may be dated) twelve phuyla in North America alone.

Allen

*phyla*!

Allen

And I was about to ask what a "phuyla" was. :)

CC

A phylum was (at least at one time) a grouping of any number of the language families listed here:

link

Grouping into phyla or even larger grouping,s or even identification of families, is something that nobody seems to agree about! The experts continue to argue…

But if the DNA analysis was done just on, say, speakers of the three largest North American families (Nadene, Algic, and Uto-Aztecan), you can esily see how much diversity would be overlooked.

Allen

This all gets back to the old 'it could have happened, but that doesn't mean it *did* happen' issue. The book '1421' is a great example- yes, Chinese maritime technology was advanced enough that a world-circling voyage was possible, in theory. But there is zero evidence (beyond the dubious claims of the author) that any such voyage actually took place. Same with the idea of early Europeans crossing the Atlantic and settling North America- it's probably possible they could skirt the ice flows and make it, but that doesn't mean that anyone actually did.

-Will

Allen and CC,

First off, beware of uninformed journalists commenting on languages, language groups, language phyla, etc. Mistakes are common. This is an everyday occurrence in the regular press (see the "All Blue-eyed People are Related" thread on the TMP science board for a good example of this). Even Live Science is not immune.

Secondly, the mitochondrial DNA studies do NOT show that North America was settled by 70 people. It shows that all indigenous North Americans are genetically related to as few as 70 people (and I've heard some say as low as 24 people). In other words, out of the thousands of people who crossed the land bridge 14,000 years ago, only 70 have contributed genetic material to todays indigenous peoples, as far as we can tell from mitochondrial markers.

As far as multiple migrations go, it depends on what you mean by that. If you mean, did successive waves of migrants arrive in North America from across the Bering Strait? Sure.

If you mean, did successive waves come to North America from different directions, then it is more difficult to tell. For example, a good candidate would be ancient Laplanders crossing over the North Atlantic ice bridge and settling North America from the Northeast direction. It was physically possible for this to happen, and it may have been so. The problem is that we do not have any genetic markers showing that this happened. The Indians of the Northeast still carry mitochondrial markers from those who crossed the Bering Strait and not that of eary Europeans. Therefore, it may have happened, but genetics cannot provide us with the evidence.

Ralph

Allen is also correct when he stated that Viking settlements in North America were never really in question. The only controversies are, "How far south did they reach". Let's use Allen's coin found in Brooklin, ME. as an example. Did the Vikings reach Maine? Or did Indians trade a Viking artifact up and down the eastern seaboard and it ended up in Maine? (That's the problem with easily transported things, like coins)

Ralph

Good process Ralph.

I am sorry Allen, by your thinking as exhibited in this thread, the "world is flat" folks a few centuries back are still right and the space program is all on a movie stage.
That is until you yourself are some how placed in orbit and then you can say the "world is round" folks are right.
Seeing is never truly believing.

In probably less than 100 years folks will be saying, "How could they really believe all they did at the beginning of the 21st Century. They must have all been mentally disfunctional."
That sounds like you Allen here.

One very large problem Allen.
Relativity was a crackpot idea a hundred years ago too.
It is the base of a good bit of our modern physics today though.
Beware of where you place the label "crackpot"; you might be the one wearing the egg in the future.

Thanks for agreeing with me Rabidfox. Beyond that I really can't see what you are after Allen about.

Ralph

>>but then you would have to find a body of the first people to find the DNA to look for in a modern population. If there is no body you will not know what to look for – that was my original point!

They found the Genghis Khan gene in western Europeans from genetic evidence gathered from modern Mogolians. There are no Mongolians in western Europe and haven't been since the 13th century. In other words, genetic evidence gathered from the modern population was used to prove hidden historical links with the other modern population.

>>limited contact with Europeans caused wide spread epidemic disease in tribes in Brazil! It wiped some out!

A tribe is not an entire ethnic grouping, many other tribes survived who were also members of the Amazonian Indian group. Nor was this a deliberate attempt at extermination.

Hi

The above on MtDna is sort of backwards. It doesn't prove that only 70 people…., it says that at sometime in the past all indians have 70 women, or families of women in common. And the evidence suggests 4 migrations as well.

Catch up.

Everone in the world has as a common ancestor, a group of women from africa 200,000 years ago. Not quite the same as saying "only".

If everyone is decended from an African "eve" from 200,000 years ago, the idea that there are dozens of current and lost language groups doesn't reall "prove" anything for the american indians.

There is also know chains of male DNA only transmitted from father to son. One is a marker called "Cohen" gene. Testing that all "cohens" were supposed to only marry inside the group, analysis found that a single male gene did show up in prepondence in modern Cantors. And larger than expected in all middle east populations, and more and more uncommon the further you get from the middle east.

And not at all among american indians or Astralian aboriginies.

The short version of 1421 is from the chinese. They had the ships, they had the fleet, they also still have the records and it didn't happen.

Now, artifacts. There are whole studies on this. I even wrote papers in my time on the subject. For instance, in premodern times there was an arifact called "Blue Bottle". Artifacts made in the middle east by likely a single famaily produced blue glass objects that over centuries traded hand to hand covered the world, without actually involving direct contact.

Another odd example involves flint knapping from the Mousterian tradition. Best evidence indicates that in all of europe, in any generation, only a handful of people were doing the knapping. But the products got traded across continents over enough time.

Rocky

Economic theory suggests that a partirular type of artefact will be produced by the person/family/tribe/nation with the best access to the necessary resources, or skills. Trade results naturally.

crhkrebs 11 Feb 2008 9:00 a.m. PST

Thanks for agreeing with me Rabidfox.

Well, you were correct.
If you were not, I would not agree.

Beyond that I really can't see what you are after Allen about.

His too easy use of the label "crackpot".
There are some easily proveable ones, and then there are just negative labels to ideas you do not find palatable.
His "crackpot"s seem too often closer to the latter.

I believe everything

I use the words that suit me, following the example set by Humpty Dumpty:

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master – that's all.'

Allen

By the way, the Maine Penny is still rejected by many, using the argument that it *must* have been planted by a modern coin collector. Occam's Sharp Implement suggests that its discovery in a shell midden most likely indicates that it was lost there by one of the people responsible for the creation of the shell midden.

Allen

Re Humpty Dumpty Aecurtis, remamber he had a great fall!