"Can These Minis Be Saved?" Topic

The figures can indeed be saved. Just give them a wash in soapy water to get rid of any grease and chemicals, go over them lightly with a toothbrush, rinse them and then prime and paint them as normal. The tarnishing shown in the pictures will not affect the long term ability of the paint to stay on the figures.

Being very familiar with "Ralidium", the copperish tone is NOT from lead rot! It is a sign of the casting being either:

a. Amongst the first out of the new mold. or
b. The metal was heated to hot the day it was cast.

When heated too high, a thin film of copper would form on the surface of the molten metal, in the casting pot.

Treat the casting as if nothing was wrong and you'll be fine!

Best,
Tom Dye
GFI

As an aside, I heard that an Italian (or was it Spanish?) company had the moulds. I know nothing beyond that and the figures don't seem to be around, sadly.

Question, "WHY should these minis be saved?" Or at least the 'Mind Flayer' looking ones! Others are 'okay' to 'fair'IMO.

LOL, looks better then anything I have EVER done (sigh) but still... those 'mind flayer' looking ones are, well, casualty figures in the making.

Gracias,

Glenn

They seem to look fine to me. I don't know alot about casting (yet), but I concur with rossco - a simple cleaning should do the trick. If it's not lead rot, then it's a part of the casting process, like Tom says.

Hmmm, they seem fine to me and Tom has offered knowledgeable insight.

The "lead rot" I've seem was much more dramatic. I pulled out some minis from my D&D days. These were about 20 yrs old and a few had this grotesque, fungus-like encrustations on them. I had heard about lead-rot and diagnosed it as such for lack of other information.

Actually, I guess the encrustations were more like a mineral salt build up or heavy oxide build-up.

GFI: when's the website going to be back up?

"I pulled out some minis from my D&D days. These were about 20 yrs old and a few had this grotesque, fungus-like encrustations on them."

Interesting. I have never seen anything like that, and I have some unpainted figures going back almost 30 years. I assume this sort of lead rot is fairly unusual?

Nothing wrong with them, they were just cast at a higher temperature when the casters had to switch to pewter from lead solder. I'd be careful of bending them though, the higher temp may make them more brittle.

Mugwump

P.S. Thank your stars it isn't lead rot. When you see that the miniature is gone--only good for refining back to lead.

Lead rot is amongst other factors influenced by temperature swings, especially if it gets below freezing point, according to one of my casting handbooks. Naturally, one alloy is more sensitive to it than another.

Rob Hamper, yes, that salty encrustation is exactly what I have called "lead rot". Unusual, but I've seen it on my own minis on three occasions. Once on Citadel from the '80s, once on ancient Heritage figs, once on TRW gansters.

I have seen extreme lead rot in copper jacketed lead bullets at a firing range. In moist areas, the copper contacting the lead creates a reaction much like that found in car batteries. Over time, the lead oxidizes and forms whitish powdery material that blooms out somewhat like a fungus.

Perhaps that is what some have observed; perhaps mounting figs on pennies is a bad idea.

Warbeads exclaimed: Question, "WHY should these minis be saved?" Or at least the 'Mind Flayer' looking ones! Others are 'okay' to 'fair'IMO. LOL, looks better then anything I have EVER done (sigh) but still... those 'mind flayer' looking ones are, well, casualty figures in the making."

It hasn't been said, but they are 15mm, which may change your opinion.

What you have here is the natural occurance of the oxidation of exposed metal to air. What happens, particularly in steels, is that the air interacts with the surface of the metal, as such a thin film is formed on the surface. This thin film acts to protect the metal from further oxidation over time. Eventually the metal will decay, depending upon the conditions the metal is exposed to.

Now having metal in contact with other metals can create a cathodic reaction, where one metal is sacrificed in order to protect another from decay.

In orer to save the minis, all you really need to do is give them a bath in warm soapy water and brush them well with a firm toothbrush. Then prime them to protect the metal. Paint them afterwards is traditonally the next step, but I digress.

GAR

Also having experience with casting Ralidium I agree with Tom's opinion. I don't believe there is a problem with those miniatures. Castings can look that way right out of the mold.

I have some 10 year old GW figures like that... Hmmm.

"It hasn't been said, but they are 15mm, which may change your opinion."

Nope, they're STILL pretty stinky looking! 8)=

Actually, they are not that bad. They paint up very nicely. I am not a big fan of beholders in general so they all look stupid to me but the others look good painted.

Nazrat, I think they are pretty good for 15mm nothing a good paint job can't fix.

I would rather have a good painted poor quality mini, then a high quality mini with a poor quality paint job......Doug

OK. As a metallurgist, let me clear up a few misconceptions.

1) The coppery sheen shown in the pictures is not "lead rot". Lead rot is the oxidation of lead decribed above as "fungus-like"

2) The sheen is likely an oxide of another element existing in Ralidium, possibly copper or tin. It's probably due to a mold contamination issue as Tom implies. It could also be due to segrgation in the alloy, but that is less likely unless the temperature was way out of control duing the casting process.

3) Not all metal oxides are protective. While a nice Chromium oxide adheres well to steel (That's how stainless steel works), lead oxide is porous and non-adherent adn will spall off allowing for more oxidation. Unless immediate steps are take to seal off the figure from the atmosphere, the miniature is doomed.

4) Dropping the metal temperature below freezing has no significant effect on it's oxidation potential. However, lowering the metal temperature and then bringing it into a moister enviroment (inside the house) will cause water to condense on the metal, thereby resulting in more rapid oxide formation.

5) I would not worry about attaching lead figures to Copper pennies. While it's true that dissimilar metals in contact set up a 'galvanic couple', only when their electro-chemical potentials are widely different will you see a significant degree of sacrificial oxidation.

One can smell lead rot. It has a distinct odor.

Tom,

I thought I read somewhere that "rallidium" was pure Zinc. Or pure Tin. something like that. Not true?

Why are we refering to these miniatures as "Mind-Flayer" looking. They were produced under license, so they are Mind-Flayers. And the top is a beholder, which is sculpted on a rock because I guess they didn't have GW clear flying stands back then.

Anyway, they look fine to me. I've seen that kind of tarnishing on GW figures only a few years old. Never had a problem.

@ Coyoteh: You're dead on about the beholder sculpt. It's how they tried to get across the fact that they have natural levitation.

@ David McBride: Say it isn't so! :*( Beholders have always been my favorite monster. If you get a chance, check them out in Neverwinter Nights. Really good "true-to-life" animation for them. :)

Lead Rot (the encrustation, "fungus looking" build up) can be stopped, or at least slowed greatly. It is not a lead oxide but a chain reaction of lead acetate. If not treated the casting will be consumed be the process and turned into a pile of dust. Different alloys are affect differently, but any containing lead can be affected.

The acetate seems to come from cardboard or wood and Lead Rot appears most often on minis stored where little air exchange happens. I have many old TSR minis that came in sets in a cardboard box, these are very badly affected. The treatment is to soak the mini in a dilute Hydrochloric acid solution (say 10%) for a hour or two. The mini will turn black and the most affected areas will bubble as the acetate is driven off. The mini can then be scrubbed with a toothbrush to remove the black coating. Then mini must be rinsed well (at least three times, the last time with distilled water) Let all air dry. Some warnings here: Lead is toxic, HCl can burn you and etch metal, the resulting solution will have both HCL and lead in it and is a hazardous waste. You must use gloves, eye protection and have good ventilation to do this.

I have treated several hundreds minis this way. Many over three years ago and no sign of renewed Lead Rot to date. This does not restore affected parts, so detail or even whole limbs are lost, but does stop the progress of the rot.

DyeHard

link

I thought I read somewhere that "rallidium" was pure Zinc. Or pure Tin. something like that. Not true?

Not true. The MSDS sheet I have on it says it consists of 96% tin and 4% antimony. From the batches of "Ralidium" we had in the remaining Minifigs, I can assure you that there were lots of other ingredients in what was sold to RP. We use 94% tin with 6% antimony and the characteristics are dramitically different.

There are many alloys available that contain small amounts of copper. I suspect that a few bars made their way into the melting pot sometime.

While working at Stone Mountain Miniatures, often, the first castings out of a new mold came out with a black/bluish tint to them. results from a chemical reaction between the metal and the production mold compound, I'm sure. Stores and customers would send them back and we (gamer employees) bought them up as being the best castings that mold will produce!

Dentatus asked: GFI: when's the website going to be back up?

GFI Website, Version III, by 1 December (provifding the Internet dieties cooperate this time!)

Best
Tom Dye
GFI

Doc Said: It hasn't been said, but they are 15mm, which may change your opinion.

Like nazrat (we agree?) said - Nope - those are bad looking. Scale doesn't change appearance, look at Peter Berry's 6 mm pieces.

Grumble, still better then I can do...

Gracias,

Glenn

The whitish stuff might be lead acetate (sugar of lead for those that have been around a while). It's the same stuff that forms on the lead seals of wine bottles -- tastes good, but don't try it. However, I've seen similar formations that were a dark gray (close to black -- much darker than the lead alloy they were 'growing' from). I suspect that the dark stuff is lead oxide. I have some old TSR AD&D minis suffering from this stuff -- perhaps I could take some pictures.

[While working at Stone Mountain Miniatures, often, the first castings out of a new mold came out with a black/bluish tint to them. results from a chemical reaction between the metal and the production mold compound, I'm sure. Stores and customers would send them back and we (gamer employees) bought them up as being the best castings that mold will produce!]

Now darn it, Tom, that was the next example I was going to showcase...

If you put your unpainted mini's in zip loc bags and store them in an environment where the temperature is relatively consistent, say 72 to 75 degrees Far. would that help protect them? Also, does priming out of the box protect them or can lead rot occur on primed minis.

Or on painted minis for that matter.

MiniGuy: priming your figures seals them and prevents lead rot.

Are the following methods safe ?

Before priming, store in small plastic bags in which figs came when purchased. Store in plastic tupperware box.

After cleaned and primed with enamel,
store in the closet in cardboard boxes.

Once finally painted, store in foam trays within cardboard boxes.

Do these steps sound like a problem ? I've only dealt with metal for about three years and am pretty paranoid once the "lead rot" topic is raised, especially since it always leads to long posts, and various theories !
Thanks in advance

PeterH: your methods are fine. You should have no problems with lead figures by following those steps.

A clarification for you: pewter does not suffer from lead rot. Pewter may sometimes develop a small amount of minor discolouration in bare metal over time, but that has no effect on the integrity and paintability of the pewter figures.

Here is a link to an article that has a good deal of useful information regarding 'lead rot', its causes and prevention.

http://www.dt.navy.mil/cnsm/lead_01.html

Hope it is of interest.

Mike

Throw them out and move on. Sounds harsh but causes a lot less heart ache. Since I got married I've chucked out many things amazing how you get over it. There is always somthing new waiting.

MP

Wow what a great article! Scares the heck out of me however. What can one do?

Lead Rot is really just a surface phenomena and presents no problem at all. Lead, like aluminum, "tarnishes" only at the very surface - the lead oxide formed protects the rest of the metal. As anyone who has worked with it knows, the outside can be black, but the inside is shiny if you cut it.

Follow this procedure with ALL lead-based minis (including pewter) before painting for a really, really durable finish:

(1) Put a layer of minis into a pan. I use the cake pans with plastic covers - you can do a lot of minis and the vinegar does not evaporate.

(2) Pour enough acetic acid into one pan to cover your figures. I prefer reagent grade acetic acid, because it has no organic bits in it like vinegar does, but you can use vinegar. If you do, use white vinegar. DIstilled white vinegar IS essentially acetic acid, and it's the best. Let soak for 5-20 minutes, depending on how badly oxidized they are. 5 min for new figures is plenty. The acid will remove most or all of the oxides. Note that it probably will NOT remove mold color - the rainbow-like colors that come from the molding process itself. Ignore these. They are harmless, in my experience. For really bad minis, you may need to scrub with an old tooth brush.

(3) While they soak, prepare a second, identical pan. Put a fair amount of baking soda in it. Fill it with HOT water just before....

(4) Fishing the figs out of the vinegar and dumping them in the second pan. They will fizz. This is good - the baking soda is neutralizing the acid. Again, if your minis have complicated cuts, you may want to scrub with a toothbrush to be sure ALL the acid is off - remaining acid can make painting very un-durable. Use a SECOND toothbrush for this job, never the same as you have in the vinegar pan!

(5) When you finish all the minis, dump them in a plastic strainer and rinse VERY thoroughly with hot water.

(6) Spread out on a soft cloth and dry rapidly. You can use a fan to get rid of the last bits of water.

(7) As soon as you are done, SPRAY THEM WITH UNDERCOAT. If you wait even a day, much of the value of the process is lost. Lead oxidizes very fast in a very thin layer - visible oxidation takes longer.

Once undercoated, they can set for a very, very long time without worry. You can process 500 15mm minis this way in an afternoon, including undercoating (if you use spray undercoat).

The Least Weasel

OOPS! I FORGOT................

Between steps 4 and 5, add step...er...4.5!!

Use a third pan, with soap in it. A little dish detergent is fine. Not a lot. Just before dumping the minis in, add very hot water, stir to mix the soap in, and dump the minis in. Wash briefly with toothbrush (a third one, each pan has its own). Then go to 5 and so on.

If you are doing a big batch, have friends over, with one person on each pan. You only need to empty Pan #2, with baking soda. Empty it and rinse it between each use. The others are good for 500 15mm minis, if you process in batchs. BTW, with several guys, you can do more than 500 in an afternoon - that is for one person.

CHeers,

The Weasel

Lead Rot as described in the later posts (formation of lead acetate) is alse taken care of by the process above, unless very far advance. If it's that far advanced you mostly have powder anyway.

If minis are primed, is it safe to store them in plastic boxes? Like the tackle boxes one might find at Wal-Mart…

The worst problem my minis have had is a dark garying of portions of them, Is this also lead rot?

Priming cures all ills. All oxidation is between an anode material, a cathode material, and a connecting electolyte material: I.e. a galvanic cell. Humidity is a electrolitic solution, so priming will end the corrosion as it insulated the cell. If you don't believe corrosion can be rapid, find something you have made of anodized aluminum and scratch it. You will see a shiny metal appear. This is real aluminum. You can sit there and watch it become dull. It is corroding and forming aluminum oxide, with happens to be non-porous and will prevent the rest of the aluminum from corroding, as opposed to iron rust which is water absorbant and will promote the corrosion of any iron or steel around it. I happen to have gotten my first degree in metallurgy 45 years ago!