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Rules Clarifications

Andy Chambers: One wound, Codex Imperialis prevails.

Andy Chambers: Free.

Andy Chambers: Depends -- a 'race' that subdivides into four army lists is a pain.

Andy Chambers: Oops.

Andy Chambers: No, they have BS to prove how good they could be if they did use guns.

Andy Chambers: The only one I have a problem with is the Beastman champion - still it should be limited to traitor Marines, really.

Andy Chambers: No.

Andy Chambers: Take a close look -- are they plasma guns or melta guns? The Eldar melta gun does resemble a plasma gun.

Andy Chambers: Guard use lasguns - end of story. But if you want to upgrade your P.D.F., 1 point per model is fine. Not sure about assault squads.

Andy Chambers: They are there to be punished!

Andy Chambers: Eldar, Space Marine, Squats

Andy Chambers: Maybe.

Andy Chambers: The Imperial Guard Codex will have new mole mortar rules.

Games Workshop: The agreed suggestion was take the weapons at the Marines' cost value and re-add them at the Imperial Guard cost. The same applies for Eldar -- when adding, say, an extra scatter laser to a war walker, take the cost of a support weapon minus crew (as this includes the cost to mount the weapon).

Steve comments: It was asked why one would want to have Imperial Guard crewing. Well, they're cheaper, and if you're fighting Marines there would seem to be a conflict of interest (Well, why not?).

Andy Chambers: No.

Khaine adds: But GWUK mail order told me they are having a sale on jet bikes, so who knows what will happen.

Andy Chambers: Max of 2 Vortex Wargear Cards + max of 50% of points can be spent on characters. But yeah, 1 Tech Marine per Tactical squad is about right.

Andy Chambers: Yes

Andy Chambers: Having played with and without, I can tell you they need Buggys, Scortchers, Shock Attack guns etc.

Andy Chambers: In Codex Orks, yes.

Andy Chambers: Yes

Andy Chambers: The Wargear List needs to have the vehicles mentioned under support added to it.

Andy Chambers:

• Visible -- Yes
• Detected -- Yes
• Hidden -- Yes
• Out of LOS -- Yes

Andy Chambers: No.

These are from the latest draft of the Tyranid Codex, but are useful clarfications for all 40K armies & players:

1. Sustained Fire: You cannot apply hits to anyone not in the squad, vehicle, or character you were targetting. All hits must go against the same target, be that a squad or whatever. No "marching the shots" out of a squad and onto the enemy commander!
2. On a related note: Sustained Fire hits cannot be applied to anyone in the squad who is in more cover than the original target. So if the target is in the open, you can't apply hits against his buddy 2" away behind the hedge, as he is in soft cover. If you target someone in cover, then hits can be applied to anyone else (subject to #1 above) who is less than or equal cover.

Games Workshop: Yes, as it is considered the same as shooting. They may not, however, use their grenade pack.

Steve adds: The impression here is that this was obvious, though in the rules under Hawk Wings it states grenades may not be used.

Andy Chambers: INDEFINITELY.

This is a misconception many of us play with, I know, I did it for several months before I very specifically looked it up.

The statement "Heavy weapons can choose specific targets" is incorrect. I'm not flaming anyone (like I said, I did it too!). I just want this to be clear. What it says on page 29 concerning choosing a target is:

Other than these individuals [heroes], ordinary troopers [this is EVERYONE except heroes] must choose the nearest targets with the following exceptions:
1. Any squad or model may ignore vehicles in favor of other targets or other targets in favor of vehicles. In other words, you can shoot the closest vehicle or the closest target that isn't a vehicle.

For example, what this means is that the rules say your war walker cannot shoot the approaching orks if there are closer models of the same type (non-wehicle) -- gretchin, for instance. The only way for your war walker to not shoot the gretchin is for there to be a vehicle behind the gretchin.

I'm very sorry if this seems snippy, but I got burned by this a while back and want to make sure no one else gets burned by it. Thanks for listening.

-- Goff Warlord Zodsnit Snagarot

100% correct. I looked it up last night and came up with the same conclusions. Additionally, no one (not even characters) can shoot at a character when it is within 2" of a squad of models that are roughly the same size as the character.

I couldn't find the vehicle or heavy weapon target rule in the boxed set rules but I did find it in the DM section under vehicles and support weapon batteries.

Is this for real!?!

I've been playing 40k for five years and we never played with this crap. My friends and I would never stoop to the lameness of sticking a Ragnar type guy 2" from some IG and say you can't shoot him. We've always played LOS with Heavy Weapons and pretty much squads as well. You have to shoot the Gretchin if they're all you can see, not because they're closer. I mean, I'd be a helluva lot more worried about the Nobz Mob on Boarz 12" away than the Grots 10" away. Do ya'll actually measure to find out who you shoot? Do you take turns firing each others' troops? What total crap!

I'm not mad at you guys, just astounded at the stupidity of the rules if that's what they actually say. There's no way I'd play that way. Do you have to toss your Vortex grenade on the Grot if he's 4" away and Ghazkull Mag Uruk Thrakka is 5" away? Insanity!

[For the record, I play Orks and IG (separate and together) and have actively played with the second edition at the chapter approved Pegasus books in Portland, OR for the last couple years with no one ever raising a fuss at who I shoot with my Heavy Bolters.]

Yes, it is for real. That's what the rules say.

It's not that you can't shoot a Ragnar type guy 2" from some IG, but that you might hit the other squad members and must randomize hits amongst the squad and the character.

We do not take turns firing each others troops, thank you very much. We simply agree with the rules, that a typical grunt will fire on the closest threat. It's just done with common sense.

It is usually only important when it comes to heavy weapons, which have enough range to be able to reach almost everyone. While I agree that grot doesn't seem like a threat, other people have posted that three of them can kill a marine. A marine will be well aware of that, and hence will shoot the closest threat.

The rule is not stupid, IMHO. It has been placed there as a compromise between reality and playablity. It can be far fetched either way, to say that troops are either not smart enuogh to gauge the greatest threat, or are unselfish enough to ignore the closest threat. Hence, the rule was instigated to the way it is for play balance.

If troops could shoot whatever they wanted (especially heavy weapons), then it would be easy for people (especially people with lots of heavy weapons and/or high BS skills) to take out all the effective troops of the other player.

I have seen games played your way and, at least here, my orks get slaughtered because the space marine heavy weapons blow away all of my heavy weapons and characters. After that, I have no comparable way to touch them in close combat, no way to hurt their heavily armoured stuff, and no way to make break checks without the characters. It is too easy IMHO to simply blow away everything that's important from long range, because you can pick an individual person out of a mob of 60.

About the vortex grenade business, the rules we are quoting specifically state that they do not apply to characters, unless the character is using a heavy weapon. Therefore, any character throwing a vortex grenade (or using any other suitably devastating weapon that isn't a heavy) can throw or shoot anywhere or anyone they like.

-- Goff Warlord Zodsnit Snagarot

I never found an addendum that forced characters to shoot at squads. As I recall, the rules pretty much stated that characters can do whatever they want (shoot whoever they want) without limitation.

Does that not hold true for characters with heavy weapons?

No (once again). Check Eldar Codex. For all of you who don't buy all Codices (praise ye!) but stick to the rules when you can, mark my words -- a character using a heavy weapon has to conform to the standard targeting rules given for squads (fire at nearest vehicle, or at nearest non-vehicle target).

                                    G = Gretchin
                         _O_______  M = Marine
      ____M____________G_| 1" hill  O = Ork
      ////////////////////////////

Andy Chambers: Gretchin, because it's closer.

Games Workshop: No. There is a difference between warp jumping and Teleporting.

Doug Lister: Nearest target.

I strongly contest the 'vehicle squads' and 'support battery' rules. Why? Because it is utterly stupid to mix different weapons, or different vehicles, together without checking their compatibility first!

Example 1: As a Space Marine player, you've bought a Land Speeder, a Predator, and 1 bike. Official Rule: you have to make a squad with that. So, basically, you lose the special advantages of the bike and land speeder.

Example 2: You play Eldar, and have bought a number of support weapons: Scatter Laser, Lascannon, D-Cannon. You have to make a battery with all of them, even though they don't have the same tactical deployment, the same efficiency at various ranges, the same role...

I oppose the rule because it is contrary to common tactical sense. In a skirmish game like 40K, the 'vehicle platoon' and 'weapon battey' is a myth. if you add stupidity to that myth, it becomes utterly unbearable.

If you check the Dark MIllenium rules, you will see that vehicle squadrons are formed by vehicles costing less than 100 pts, and troop transports can be omitted. (I am not sure about that last part.)

Soooo, the Predator and Land Speeder, both costing more than 100 pts, do not have to be included in a vehicle squadron. Many orc and squat vehicles cost less than 100 pts (In fact, I think they all may), and would have to be put in squadrons of at least 3 vehicles.

Also, vehicles which are bought as a unit (such as Eldar jet-bike squadrons) do not have to be put in vehicle squadrons (they already are).

-- Commander Montoya of the Ultramarines

Yes, I know about the 100-pt rule. Which makes no more sense than the vehicle squad rule, if I might add. Why would two warbikes, a battlewagon and a wartrak be constrained by stupid and anti-tactical squad coherency rules while three Predators wouldn't?

As for the Eldar jetbikes, you can buy them as squadrons (guardians, scouts, pirates, harlequins), but you can also buy them as individual vehicles with Vypers. They are in the Support section, and not only because you need their template... The difference is that you can buy almost as many squadron-bound bikes as you wish (they count as squads), while you are limited to 50% for global support (Dreads, grav weapons, War walkers, vypers, and jetbikes).

Note that I don't mind mixing Vypers and jetbikes, as both vehicle types are roughly similar from a tactical POV, the Vyper being a heavier, more armed, two-man version.

But mixing bikes with rhinos, or scatter lasers with lascannons? Never.

As someone else said, the rule should be modified: all vehicles and support weapons must follow this rule (whatever their cost), but only if their general tactical role and abilities are similar.

For instance, you take a Land Raider and a Rhino. Their tac. role is very different, you don't have to make a squad with them. OTOH, Land Raider and Predator might be another story (I don't remember the speeds and weapon ranges, thus the 'might'). You can keep a land speeder and a bike separate, but you must attach two landspeeders into a single squadron...

OTOH, I strongly suggest to relax the squad coherency rule for vehicle platoons: use the 'dispersed formation' rule (4" squad coherency distance), as their movement allowance is usually much higher.

I thought the squad coherancy for vehicles was 6" and you could break up your squads if you wanted to, but any vehicles out of formation at the end of the game were considered destroyed for the purposes of VP's.

Also, the way we do things is that orcs have to put their vehicles in squadrons reguardless of what particular vehicles they have, but everybody else only has to put LIKE vehicles together.

(This was a rule explained to me by an Orc player at a convention. I've never looked it up but until reading this, I just accepted it as THE RULES. I don't play with vehicles that are less than 100 pts.)

Andy Chambers: Dark Millenium contains an expanded V.P. chart to cover this. 50 points or less + no V.P.

Andy Chambers: Greater Daemons are considered characters and squads of lesser daemons are considered squads.