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"Koenig Krieg, Why 3rd Edition?" Topic


Koenig Krieg

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Nadir Shah20 Apr 2010 10:10 p.m. PST

Here is a great review of the Horse and Musket mid 18th century set of rules called Koenig Krieg.

This review is for anybody who is unsure or never heard of Koenig Krieg. Occasionally we also get players who have had there own little group since first and second edition came out many, many years ago sometimes ask why third edition is any better. Well this says it all for everyone!

link

We are in the midst of preparing our second print run and are also working on compehensive army lists for the War of Polish Succession, War of Austrian Succession, Seven Years, American War of Independence and many other lists from French Indian Wars through to some of the more interesting armies like Armies of the East (Ottoman/Persian/Durrani Afghan/Mysore/Moghul/Marathas.

And yes we are working on a set of Napoleonic Rules which have been heavily playtesting over the last year. We still have a way to go before we look at publishing our Napoleonic Rules.

There still is our rules for Kleiner Krieg (Little Battles like Advanced Guards), Festung Krieg (Siege Battles)and our Campaign game as well as our War of Spanish Succession/Great Northern Wars game La Guerre Du Roi to publish first!

bobblanchett20 Apr 2010 10:13 p.m. PST

does the new edition include der grosse könig and festung kreig? the campaign and siege rules?

Nadir Shah20 Apr 2010 10:21 p.m. PST

Hi Bob,

This is not a new edition but 2nd print run, as we have already sold out our first print run.

Happily for many, we will be republishing Der Grosse Koenig/Festung Krieg/Kleiner Krieg later this year.

These later publications like our Campaign game will be very affordable and we have lots of them coming out in the next 8 months! :)

Clay the Elitist20 Apr 2010 10:38 p.m. PST

Wow, did you change any rules? I loved this game…wish I still had the minis.

Nadir Shah20 Apr 2010 10:49 p.m. PST

Clay the review says it all! Happy reading and even happier gaming. The wonderful thing about this era is the colour. Flags, uniforms it has it all!

We are currently looking for playtesters for our AWI lists, so its a pity you sold all your minis.

SJDonovan21 Apr 2010 1:36 a.m. PST

I've read the review and it does sound like an interesting set of rules. However, I couldn't find any details about figure scale, basing etc. Can you give me some details of what size battles it is designed to represent?

Slappy21 Apr 2010 1:58 a.m. PST

usually 15mm but can be 25/28mm
Bases for 15mm scale
Inf 2cm wide / 2.5cm deep
Skirmish 2.5cm wide / 1.5cm deep
Cav 2.5cm wide / 5cm deep

usually 1000 points is two to three infantry Brigades , independant foot an light cav brigades and Cavalry wings (1-2). 1000 points gives a good feel and quick game with a great SYW feel.

Slappy21 Apr 2010 1:59 a.m. PST

Incidently are you looking at the war of Bavarian succession?

SJDonovan21 Apr 2010 3:20 a.m. PST

Thanks Slappy,

I assume units are made up of multiple bases? Is firing, melee etc done by bases or by figure count. And how are casualties marked? Is it figure removal or some other method?

Stephen

Slappy21 Apr 2010 4:20 a.m. PST

Yeah units are made of multiple bases – average of twelve with some large (swiss) at 16, there is usuall 3 – 6 of these battalions in a brigade. Combat is done by figure count and the compnay offers some neat counters for casualties.

Cold Steel21 Apr 2010 4:36 a.m. PST

How about a pdf version? Not a lot of people can afford the printed price these days, but you will sell a lot more copies for $10-15 for a pdf.

Personal logo Lentulus Supporting Member of TMP21 Apr 2010 4:54 a.m. PST

"Der Grosse Koenig/Festung Krieg/Kleiner Krieg"

How readily could those systems be used with a different tactical system?

SJDonovan21 Apr 2010 6:31 a.m. PST

Thanks for the information Slappy.

bobblanchett21 Apr 2010 7:59 a.m. PST

@lentulus..

VERY easily, provided SWS dont mess with it or bind it in a closed way only to KK.

I'd like to make a plea to SWS to adopt this policy with the supplement as they have a potential audience beyond KK fans.:

that policy? "no fluff, just stuff"

A campaign annual combining campaign/operational/siege rules has the potential to be a killer product right across C18 fans.

Look further than just your KK audience, not quite a "loss leader" but it' an opportunity to draw people to KK who perhaps havent considered it before, if you, stick to the "meat" and go merely garnish wih the bun and gherkin.

I just cant justify a AUD70 pricepoint for what is a slim product, content wise.

If Sam Mustafa can RRP MnR chock full of stuff for AUD50 after shipping it to Oz from New Jersey, then SWS have no excuse. I really apreciate you giving new life to rules I love, SWS, but try harder this time,

Ive copies of older editions, myself and would buy a new one for the "meat" but the GK system is what C18 *needs*.. Soldier kings had ONE box for bohemia for crying out loud and the Friedrich map doesnt cut it..

A campaign annual that has something to offer all C18 players woul be a real shot in the arm for the period.

any seconders to "no fluff just stuff"?

50 Dylan CDs and an Icepick21 Apr 2010 8:32 a.m. PST

[…If Sam Mustafa can RRP MnR chock full of stuff for AUD50 after shipping it to Oz from New Jersey…]

Well, in all fairness, the publisher never sets the retail price outside his own country. I set a standard retailer discount, no matter where in the world it goes, and then the overseas retailers set their own prices, based upon the cost of shipping (which has become dreadful), and various other import taxes and such.

It's very hard to say what a wargame book will cost, when it crosses an ocean.

Procopius21 Apr 2010 9:21 a.m. PST

SJDonovan ~ The bases are available from me at link

Cheers,

Glynn
Fernvale Specialty Scenics

PS ~ Email me through my website for discounts on base packs, or loose bases.

Forager21 Apr 2010 12:55 p.m. PST

Yeah, I'm with Cold Steel. When's a pdf version of KK3 going to be available? I've been waiting for the first print run to sell out in the hopes that you guys will have recouped your print costs and finally make a pdf available. Same profit (or maybe even more), but without the expense of a professional print run. Seems like a win-win situation to me, but maybe that's just me thinking with my tight *ss. *smile* Guess I'll just keep play my 2nd edition KK and looking for a second hand copy of KK3 while I wait for the pdf to become available.

For what it's worth, I'm interested in the Nap,AWI, and Campaign games/supplements as well but I'll be looking for the pdfs or second hand copies for those too if the print copy pricing is anything near what it is for KK3.

TailEndCharlie21 Apr 2010 7:13 p.m. PST

As a director of Siege Works Studios I will answer the questions that have not yet been answered.

Cold Steel – We will offer a PDF version and at least part of the cost of a PDF version will be credited back against any hard copy version purchased later on. We will have the 5 army lists from the rule book available to purchase as PDF's very shortly.

Lentulus – Der Grosse Koenig and Festung Krieg do lend themselves to most horse and musket era and wil not be tied too closely to KK. I will let Drew answer about how well Kleiner Krieg will work across era.

bobblanchett – "no fluff, just stuff" is the aim. What do you mean by "slim product". The KK V3 rule book is 134 full colour pages including the rules, detailed terrain section, 6 quick play games, army lists for the 5 major nations, OOB and rules for the Battle of Molwitz and provides access to 3 down-loadable PDF documents that include 14 pages of national summaries of every nation that fought between 1730 and 1763, 31 pages of national leader summaries for virtually every senior officer in every nation from 1730 – 1763 and a 9 page SYW Swedish list. A total of 190 odd pages of data and information and rules.

Forager – Again, once we have updated the current V3 book with errata and some other items the community have asked for we will both re-print and supply as a PDF. The physical copies will also be available from re-sellers in Australia, US, UK and Europe. We already have re-sellers waiting in these places and are happy to talk to anyone else who is interested in re-selling our range of products.

Bases are also available from our on-line store as well as tokens to assist in playing the game, casualty markers, range rules with all the regularly used distances marked on it and dice with a great Prussian war eagle as the 6 int Prussian yellow and black.

DragonfireGames21 Apr 2010 9:01 p.m. PST

[…If Sam Mustafa can RRP MnR chock full of stuff for AUD50 after shipping it to Oz from New Jersey…]

"Well, in all fairness, the publisher never sets the retail price outside his own country. I set a standard retailer discount, no matter where in the world it goes, and then the overseas retailers set their own prices, based upon the cost of shipping (which has become dreadful), and various other import taxes and such.

It's very hard to say what a wargame book will cost, when it crosses an ocean."

Sultan Sam is absolutely correct! I sell Lasalle at over 10% off Australian AUD. RRP from the Aussie Distributor of Lasalle is $80.00 AUD RRP. I sell them for $70.00 AUD and I only make maybe $20%. same as Black Powder, ROE, Revolution to Empire, which are all priced at RRP$80.00 AUD. So you may well be able to get the product direct for less, (Well done for you) but to actually sell products in Australia its much more expensive.

I am imagine that production costs as a result of the rising Aussie dollar also make production here Australia more than elsewhere comparitively with the exchange rates.

I guess anyone not in the actual business doesn't quite understand the profit margins, just sees a product out, sees a price and thinks everyone is making a million bucks. Lol! Of course this is nonsense, margins are small and its about volume to make anything coste effective for Wargaming business's.

I am looking to sell these rules Koenig Krieg through the Dragonfire Games shop when they are reprinted and at RRP $70.00 AUD they are about right compared to other products. Lasalle, Black Powder etc are all $10.00 USD more RRP AUD, but they are Hard Bound and about 10-20 pages more than the Koenig Book. So in Australia this set of rules is fine for actual RRP costs. With the rising Aussie dollar I think that SWS may have been burn't a little in the International market but that I guess is due to weaker foreign doemstic currencies in the latest financial crisis.

Just my 2 cents worth from actual experience!

Nadir Shah21 Apr 2010 9:56 p.m. PST

"Lentulus – Der Grosse Koenig and Festung Krieg do lend themselves to most horse and musket era and wil not be tied too closely to KK. I will let Drew answer about how well Kleiner Krieg will work across era."

Festung Krieg and Der Grosser Koenig will be brought out in pretty much there original state, no great changes to the actual rules, to accommodate for players that already enjoy these series. The only real changes will be to broaden them to Horse and Musket Campaigns generally, from 1700-1900. We will be doing this as we do not think it necessary to do a campaign system for WSS, SYW, Napoleoics, ACW, Franco-Prussian etc when one will suffice very well indeed.

There will also be released a grand scale set of Campaign rules, unlike Der Grosse Koenig and Festung Krieg which are designed for the more local aspect of warfare in the ways that troops act both in Sieges and on Campaign. The Grand Scale rules will cover Sieges, Light Troops (flying columns etc) and large army movements fighting over entire provinces at 1 time, like Silesia, or a Siege at Badajoz or the Invasion of the North – Pennylvania in ACW. Battles will reolve the fate of Provinces. This set of rules is obviously about sweeping brushstrokes as opposed to the more local management of troops and conducting Sieges found in DGK and FK (festung Krieg) i will be Grand Tactical and the other will be Tactical in design.

Maps and various theatres will be the driving force in both sets and will be available a support and supplements for players wanting to fight their favourite Horse and Musket Campaign or Theatre of Operations from 1740-1900.

However we will be bring out the Tactical and well known publications first (Der Grosse Koenig and Festung Krieg)

Kleiner Krieg is for the Koenig Krieg era only at this stage, but because of its simplicity it is currently being experimented with as a generic system. Cannot say too much more than that at this early stage. :)

Mollinary21 Apr 2010 10:57 p.m. PST

Tail End Charlie ends his piece with a description of dice in "Prussian yellow and black"! Is this man a paid lackey of that overweight harridan Maria-Theresia? Prussia is above such frippery as colour – black and white have always been good enough for our noble (and frugal) House of Hohenzollern!

Mollinary

bobblanchett21 Apr 2010 11:14 p.m. PST

All sounds great,,
cheers for the info

Nadir Shah22 Apr 2010 2:10 a.m. PST

"Tail End Charlie ends his piece with a description of dice in "Prussian yellow and black"! Is this man a paid lackey of that overweight harridan Maria-Theresia? Prussia is above such frippery as colour – black and white have always been good enough for our noble (and frugal) House of Hohenzollern!"

Lol! :)

1ngram22 Apr 2010 4:02 a.m. PST

I have to say that the massive chart on page 9 of these rules detailing the moves, the phases, the sub-phases and finally the segments of each game turn completely put me off them. Complex?

I want to find a set of rules for 18th Century that allows a good game with a reasonable small number of units in 28mm, that has elegant solutions to how to handle command control, fire and morale without zillions of die rolls for all these things every turn. I've been traipsing through set after set this past week (luckily I have a friend who collects rule sets) – Koenig Krieg, Volley and Bayonet, Might and Reason, Die Kriegskunst, Esprit – they are either far too complex (and involved – not the same thing) or look OK for big battles only – (I use M+R in 15mm for example for WSS) but none look easy for an evening battle in 28mm with a couple of brigades and some supporting horse a side, something more Austrian Succession in feel, something more involving at a regimental level.

Any ideas?

Duc de Limbourg22 Apr 2010 12:28 p.m. PST

Warfare in the age of reason?

darrenwalker9222 Apr 2010 8:52 p.m. PST

Wow. Any news on when Festung Krieg and Der Grosser Koenig and Kleiner Krieg will be available?

May I say I found KK3 to be an excellent set of rules, worth every cent I paid for them. If the "extra" modules are anything like as good i will have to purchase them.

bobblanchett22 Apr 2010 11:25 p.m. PST

crikey you havent got shares in SWS have you Darren? ;)

bavoisSYW22 Apr 2010 11:27 p.m. PST

1ngram, I wouldn't knock something unless you have actually played them. Koenig Krieg is actually a very simple to play set of rules. But if you think Koenig Krieg is complex then Age of Reason will not do for you, neither will Might or Reason or Volley and Bayonet. I would guess from your statement, my guess is you are looking for a Beer and Pretzels fun game. Try Black Powder! Quick mechanics and great for a laugh and quick result. :)

1ngram23 Apr 2010 2:49 a.m. PST

Yes I've had a look at those too – though not played them. I think in part I have an aversion to the bloated book approach to rules where the rules are spread over page after page of eye candy and in part a disappointment with the essential lack of elegance of the game mechanisms of most if not all of these sets. I think, for example that Grande Armee is a very elegant set of rules with lots of interesting "chrome" which gives an exciting and visually attractive large scale Napoleonic battle. Impetus, especially Basic Impetus provides in the pre gunpowder period a very elegant set of rule mechanisms which, for all its generalisations, gives a truly excellent game. I haven't seen anything trying to do the same for relatively small scale horse and musket warfare. Might and Reason does a reasonable job for larger armies but something like an 18th Century equivalent of the scale that "Forlorn Hope" tried to do for the ECW is what I asm looking for. Its been suggested that I just extend BI into the 18th Century but to my mind there is a major break towarsd the end of the 17th Century and rules for then onwards should have a substantial command control element to reflect the importance of drill and the military mindset of the period.

bobblanchett23 Apr 2010 3:14 a.m. PST

Well, 1ngram.. maybe you could engineer Grandeur backwards from Naps to C18, if you like BI!

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