"Dux Britanniarum campaign rules with Saga" Topic

Has anyone looked at or tried the campaign rules from Too Fat Lardies Dux Britanniarum for Saga? If so, how did they work? Are they too tightly bound to the main rules? Is Dux Britanniarum worth the purchase for this purpose (I do not think I would play the rules).

Thanks in advance,

Dale

I have both (and due to lack of time to paint, havn't played either yet)

One potential problem is that the Dux Brit is campaign system (unlike the battle system which is pretty flexible) is pretty tied to the 5th-6th century background.

The campaign options and progression for both the Briton and Saxon are not really compatible with a 9th-10th century.

The British leader starts as war leader for his king, and progresses to either warlord or supplanting the king.

The Saxon leader starts as a subordinate to a ruler and, if he manages to win enough battles, becomes an independent lord.

You can probably make it work but there would be a bit of work involved.

I think that it has wonderful storytelling possibilities.

Also, the pre-battle options are fun : speeches, sending out your champion, getting your men boozed up, calling on god (or gods)… fun!

Thanks, that really helps a lot!

Hi,

the dux brit post and pre game campaign system has nearly no impact on the game and can be skipped alltogther.

The campaign system of DBA or even warhamer historical or Mordheim is better than Dux!

Greetings and have fun

I can't believe what i have just read.. The Dux Brit pre game phase has a huge influence in force morale and the way troops behave in the forthcoming battle. The post game phase has a major influence on the level of victory and how the campaign progresses. I can only presume that Rudi hasn't played Dux Brit much as, with respect, what he says could not be more wrong.

I'd also disagree on the part DBA or Mordheim having a better campaign system then Dux. They are very different, and which is better depends on what you are looking for. The Dux campaign system does an excellent job of creating a campaign between a stable kingdom being invaded by raiders/barbarians etc. It could easily be adapted to use with Saga. We actually use it with song of arthur and merlin as the combat rules, but Saga would work fine too. It is worth a try if you want a system that includes politics, finance etc, but doesn't get too bogged down.

Rudi – You really should not comment on a set of rules you have obviously not read, much less played.

Having not read or seen Saga I can't comment on the original question.

Must admit I *really* don't get Rudi's comments – would be interested if he'd care to elaborate. For me the campaign system is *absolutely* the heart of Dux Brit – as a one-off battle game it's a decent set of rules, but the campaign setting is really what makes it stand out, and for me pretty much its raison d'etre – playing the games as part of an ongoing campaign, with the back-story and pre and post battle events is what really makes the game, not a minor distraction to be dropped.

As for using it as a background for Saga, Mr Pumblechook has given a good summary; the campaign isn't too firmly wedded to the battle rules as such, but is quite firmly set in its era. That said, I suspect that a little thought could adapt it to later with minimal pain, but switching the roles (ie. the Vikings take the "Saxon" place in the campaign, while the Anglo-Saxons are now the ones defending their territory, rather than the new arrivals seeking to carve it out.) The one possible sticking point might be casualty levels; post-game replacements would need some rethinking, as in Dux Brit in a bad defeat you can expect to lose maybe a third of your troops killed, while in Saga wiped out to the last man isn't terribly uncommon.

(I'd probably start by looking at a post-game "saving roll" to see if troops were really killed in a Saga battle, or had actually effed off, suffered a flesh wound or whatever; would need some tinkering to get the balance right, but 4+ or maybe even 3+ on a d6 and he wasn't killed after all, kind of thing. That would probably bring the casualty proportions down to the kind of level the Dux Brit system is designed to deal with.)

Dom.

Absolutely agree with Dom, the campaign system in Dux B is the very heart of it and it's brilliant.

To be honest, I haven't had so much fun in playing a campaign in years. With the small additions in the TFL 2012 Summer special it becomes even more involving.

Then again SAGA is great as well. However as Dom already mentioned it often ends with a 'last man standing' result.

How to translate this to a Dux setting is beyond me.
In Dux 'lower class' troops such as skirmishers and archers are often simply chased away by better trained troops. They simply decide that being there isn't a healty proposition and leave. They'll be back for the next battle but for now they leave it up to the 'big guys'

Very realistic but SAGA doesn't cater for things like this. If cornered, the archers – since they would most probable be levies- would fight a rather futile battle and die horribly.

You would also have to juggle with the different Noble stats. In Dux B each noble/leader- you start out with 3 and a champion- has a different status level. (mostly 2 or 3)This indicates how may commands he may issue, how many attacks he or she has and how many 'wounds' he can sustain.
Since they are an important part of the campaign system you can't just simply ignore them I guess.

In SAGA there is mostly just the one Warlord with usually 5 attacks.
Possibly you could do something with the SAGA Irish Curadh champion type?

I'm sure you could adapt the Dux Britttanarium campaign system to work with SAGA but it will take some work to get items like career moves, money, fortifications and such 'translated' to SAGA games.

The result however might be a true work of art as you would IMHO be combining the two best gaming systems on the market today.

I am going to agree with everyone above--the Dux B campaign system is absolutely it's heart and soul and a true gem. It's what makes me love the game and it has a huge impact on both pre and post battle. Can't speak for DB, but the Dux B campaign system is better for what it's trying to simulate--Dark Ages warfare and raids in Britain than the Mordheim system would be. Given that fact, it would potentially work very well for Saga. Either Rudi hasn't played the game or he has an axe to grind or he's been smoking too much Old Toby.

I look forward to hear a follow on from Rudi, as he does not say if he has read the rules. Anyone that has played Dux would know the pre-game, post-game and campaign system are as important as the battles themselves.

I don't agree with the comments that removing a figure or unit in Saga represents "wiping" it out. Some people complain about no morale rules in Saga, but if you listen to the interviews given by the game designer (Historical Wargames Podcast, for example), he states that figure removal can be a morale result, especially as a result of some of the Saga abilities (which automagically remove enemy figures).

Thanks for the insight into DuxB's campaign system. It might be worth a look, just to see what everyone sees as a great system.

I take the point, but morale failures are *usually* collective rather than one bloke at a time, so I'm not sure how well that argument stands up. Regardless, I'd certainly treat it that way anyway; use either a saving roll or a fixed percentage of "casualties" as being "oh no, they just ran away after all" – the key is that a "beaten" force should be capable, if desperate, of taking to the field again before replacements for the casualties have turned up.

I am glad that I wasn't alone in being surprised by Rudi's comments. Looks like some ulterior motive is at play.

Dale, why not play Dux Brit rather than just read them? I note you said you probably wouldn't play the rules but you'd be missing out on a fun game.

I take the point, but morale failures are *usually* collective rather than one bloke at a time, so I'm not sure how well that argument stands up.

You just need to look at it more abstractly. (It helps to squint.) Speaking of figure removal systems in general, and not just Saga, the loss of a figure can represent it no longer being "effective" (i.e. it shoots, but will always miss, it hangs back in melee, it helps carry off the wounded instead of standing in the battle line, etc.). When enough figures become ineffective, the unit breaks and disappears.

Read Keegan about ineffective soldiers and morale.

Dale, why not play Dux Brit rather than just read them? I note you said you probably wouldn't play the rules but you'd be missing out on a fun game.

In general I have not like TFL games. Not trying to cast aspersions on the game – I have obviously not played it – but I have a tub full of TFL rules that do not get played at all (IABSM, TW&T, SP, KMH). I buy TFL products for the scenarios.

I have played SP at a convention and, although I had fun learning the rules, I could tell they were not for me. I don't doubt that DBrit would also be a fun diversion. I do like games that break the traditional IGO-UGO turn sequence, but I prefer dice over cards, especially make-your-own card decks. Picquet never grabbed me either. The Bolt Action activation mechanic looks like a winner to me (along with pinning). I am still mulling over whether the rest works for me or not. (I am not too keen on army lists and points after my last foray into Flames of War.)

Right now I am seeking a good campaign system, and it sounds like these may be a good example to model other after.

Thanks for all the responses.

Dale

I really should mention that Dux Britanniarum does have professionally made cards that are produced by the same company that make cards for all the major boardgame manufacturers. You most definitely don't need to make your own!

Dale, I do appreciate that we all have oreferences with rules and I fully respect the fact that you aren't overly taken with our systems. However I would say that Dux Brit does play rather differently to most of our stuff, so if you do buy it for the campaign system then do consider trying the rules for a game. Even die-hard Lard-haters have really enjoyed these.

Cheers

Rich

Just so we are clear: I am not a "die-hard Lard-hater". I know you were not saying that I was; I just did not want that to be left hanging. I buy enough of your stuff as it is (as I said, for the scenario material).

Again, I play TFL if someone else is running it, and they have obviously put a bit of effort into it (like a convention game). For me they are a "once every so often bit of curry", not a steady diet.