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"Artillery in FUBAR?" Topic


FUBAR

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Tgunner10 Nov 2012 1:42 p.m. PST

How do you guys handle artillery? I want something simple, easy to remember, and balanced. Are there any arty plug-ins for FUBAR? I saw the ones for Vietnam FUBAR but I can't make heads or tails of it. Thanks!

MajorB10 Nov 2012 2:24 p.m. PST

The artillery rules here seem pretty straightforward:
PDF link

Tgunner10 Nov 2012 2:35 p.m. PST

Sorry, they're clear like mud to me. How do they work?

1. RTO makes the call? How? When? Is that an activation for the RTO or the whole squad?
2. Nominate the target- okay, easy enough but is that during the same activation with the RTO?
3. Make a call for support… wait a minute, didn't I do that in step one or is this another roll by itself, or even another unit activating?
4. The round is due in 1 x the expertise number on the top chart… and that's in activations, right? So when does that start, with the RTO's call or the call for support? "When the first round is DUE, move the target point FP" x Error according to the Deviation Table, from the caller's POV" What? FP"??? FP in FUBAR is firepower dice. Now there is another table below this that mentions FP dice, so is that a die roll and the number is the inches of deviation?
5. "Make a Support Call to adjust the target point or start a new Mission."
When's that? And do the shells just keep on coming until they're stopped?

Sorry, just too muddled for me.

I want something simple and clear. Is there anything like that out there? Yes I can invent my own but I want to see what other people are doing.

Angel Barracks10 Nov 2012 3:07 p.m. PST

I had been pondering this and as yet come up with nothing.
I will have a ponder tomorrow and let you know what I will use for my 6mm sci-fi FUBAR.

It may suck chunks, but it may not?!

MajorB10 Nov 2012 3:30 p.m. PST

1. RTO makes the call? How? When? Is that an activation for the RTO or the whole squad?

When he can see a target. Activation for just the RTO, not the whole squad. (But see comments under stpe 3).

2. Nominate the target- okay, easy enough but is that during the same activation with the RTO?

Yes.

3. Make a call for support… wait a minute, didn't I do that in step one or is this another roll by itself, or even another unit activating?

Agree this is confusing. Makes more sense to do it here, so ignore step 1 above.

4. The round is due in 1 x the expertise number on the top chart… and that's in activations, right? So when does that start, with the RTO's call or the call for support?

If the score was 1 it would be due on the next activatio. If the score was 2 it would be due on the next but one activation and so on …

"When the first round is DUE, move the target point FP" x Error according to the Deviation Table, from the caller's POV" What? FP"??? FP in FUBAR is firepower dice.

If the FP die is a D10 then FP" = 10".

Now there is another table below this that mentions FP dice, so is that a die roll and the number is the inches of deviation?

No, the Deviation is given by rolling 1D6 on the Deviation Table (under Delay, Error and Deviation).

5. "Make a Support Call to adjust the target point or start a new Mission."
When's that? And do the shells just keep on coming until they're stopped?

Again, not that clear, but I suggest after the first round has been placed, the RTO then instructs the battery to "Fire For Effect with x rounds" The fire will then stop after x rounds of fire (1 per activation) unless the RTO makes another support call to cancel and/or nominate a new target.

Dale Hurtt10 Nov 2012 5:07 p.m. PST

1. Roll to activate for the RTO.
2. Same activation.
3. This is a roll for expertise not activation. Still same activation.
4. It starts after the successful call for support.
5. It states that fire missions fire continuously each and every activation. So yes, they keep coming. Again support calls are expertise rolls not activation rolls. But you cannot make an expertise roll unless you are activated.

These look like they work, but to be honest I haven't played them.

Tgunner10 Nov 2012 9:21 p.m. PST

I'm thinking this. Artillery can be called by an observer or a leader. During their activation they can call artillery instead of moving and shooting or any other action. So…

1. Roll to activate the unit. If the unit activates then it spends its action calling in artillery. If it fails then no joy and play goes to the other side. If a unmodified "1" is rolled then not only does the call fail but initiative is lost and so is the fire mission if you're using my pool suggestion below.
2. Next place the appropriate blast template on the nominated target. If it's in LOS of the caller then just roll against the caller's expertise. If it's not then assign a penalty like +1 to the caller's expertise.
3. If successful then the artillery arrives and all units under the template are attacked with the Fire Power of the attack. Then the attack is over. Maybe a special rule could be that if another artillery strike is made against the same location then the caller gets a bonus -1 on their expertise to continue the fire mission.
4. If the roll fails then roll another die and compare it with a hexagon with the top (1 on the die) bring in-line with the caller, ie each side on the D6 is 60 degrees. Count around the "hex" until you get to your roll. This is the deviation in direction. Roll another die for distance in inches and add to it the difference between the caller's expertise and the actual roll. Perhaps the distance die could be based on the caller's or artillery unit's training: 1d4 for elite, 1d6 for veteran, 1d8 for seasoned, and 1d10 for green. Anyway the die roll plus the difference between the expertise target and the die roll is the distance deviation in inches. So the closer you are to your expertise target the closer you are to your, err… target!

Also if one side has better electronic warfare capabilities then give the caller a bonus or penalty to their expertise when calling for fire support. Another special rule could be about when the strike arrives. The closer the shooting unit then the quicker the fire arrives. Company/battalion support arrives that action. Battalion and Brigade support arrives after the last unit activates during the turn the fire is called, and so on. Finally I would give each side a pool of support missions that they can call. Say 3 in a six turn game

Anyway this is what I'm thinking about: simple, easy to remember, and maybe effective?

John Leahy Supporting Member of TMP10 Nov 2012 11:15 p.m. PST

Artillery and mortar rules are an area that I have been clamoring for improvement for a while now.

Tgunner some of what you posted sounds interesting. Some seems pretty involved for Fubar.

Thanks,

John

Angel Barracks11 Nov 2012 2:37 a.m. PST

I was thinking about this and I am wondering why people do deviation for artillery but not other things.

In most games when you miss that is the end of it.
Artillery however seems to have this unwritten law that when you miss it is not the end of it, you must see where the shell ends up.
Why not do that with tank shells, mortars, grenades, small arms fire and so on.
In skirmish games, such as FUBAR is aimed towards, then surely a BFG on a tank that misses the first APC may hit the one next to it, or behind it?
Or maybe hit the troops near it?
Maybe it hits a squad 200 yards behind the target?

Yes artillery has a bigger blast radius, but one artillery shot will probably do less damage than an entire games worth of small arms and vehicle fire, so why are those misses ignored, when in fact they have more impact on the outcome of the battle?

I am not sure what rules I will use, but I am sure that I will play so that an artillery miss like all other attacks that miss actually miss.

Why roll to hit, miss, then roll for deviation and possibly end up hitting something anyway?
All that faff and despite missing the enemy you ended up deviating and hitting the enemy.
So you did hit after all, or you deviated and you missed.
Hit or miss, just like all other attack rolls, simple.

I wont be using a template either.
Attacks are squad vs squad, so if my artillery hits, then the damage is done to the squad as per normal.
Otherwise a 10FP template that hits a squad but only covers 1 figure is a waste of 10FP, you may as well have missed.
Likewise if a template covers 2 squads which ones take the damage, is it 6FP on squad A and 4FP on squad B?
What if the template covers 2 squads but in one squad it covers 2 figures and in the other squad it covers just 1 figure, is that 7FP on 1 figure, 2FP on the other and 1FP on the last?
All seems overly complicated for a set of 1 page fast play rules.

FUBAR is quick and easy to play, for me introducing all these other deviation rules and so on kind of misses the point FUBAR set out to address, KISS.


That is my thought on the matter anyhow!


Michael.

Tgunner11 Nov 2012 6:30 a.m. PST

Some great points Michael.

I tossed in deviation because that is something that artillery is, err… famous (?), infamous for. I can't count the number of times that I've read a book set in Vietnam or WWII where a unit in the book gets clobbered by short rounds from their own artillery or the shells overshoot the target and hit something else. Artillery is tricky business with lots of trial and error involved and really bad things can happen if the observer screws up. I don't think that is so much the case with modern artillery what with GPS and computers.

As for deviation in *normal* shooting… you're probably right about the effects but that can get too fiddly. But maybe it's not out of line with doing it for the big guns? I wouldn't do it personally.

Honestly when I played my system above I don't use the deviation system. In my games either the barrage arrives on target or it doesn't. I don't really bother with it myself but I thought the system should be there for those who want it. In my games I only go to step 3 because I assume that US and LRL artillery are very accurate and that a failure in the expertise roll in step 2 means that the guns simply aren't available to shoot or the observer isn't ready to call for the fire mission.

As for templates artillery is a blast radius weapon to me and one barrage should be able to hit multiple units. I use the 50% rule myself to determine if a unit is affected. That is if at least 50% of the model or unit is under the template then that unit is attacked by the full fire power dice of that barrage. For example my battalion fire missions are 4FP attacks (I'm thinking medium mortars) with a 3" blast template. So when I call for a fire mission I place the template so I can get as many units under it as I can, but only units that are at least 50% covered are actually attacked by the full 4FP. So if 3 troopers of a 6 man squad and half a tank are under the template then both of these units are attacked with the 4 FP of that barrage. But if a 6 man squad has just a man or two under the template then it isn't affected. That's because I take a Force on Force attitude to unit placement, that is, the figures define, ROUGHLY, where an infantry unit is and there isn't enough of the unit in the kill zone for the fire to be effective.

Any way that's how I would do it.

Dale Hurtt11 Nov 2012 7:18 a.m. PST

I think a lot about shots from small arms missing in some of the rules that I create. The idea is that a shot's chance to hit something is based on troop density in a given area. So for example, if a shot misses the primary target being aimed at then I give a chance to hit another target within a certain distance. Shots from small arms and antitank rounds aren't so much deviation as hitting another target within the line of fire.

I base this off of reading accounts from the Franco-Prussian War (and how fire penetrated into units behind) and of descriptions in USMC tactical manuals, primarily about grazing fire and dead ground.

vtsaogames11 Nov 2012 3:59 p.m. PST

Missed shots roll again against targets behind the main target and in LOS?

Tgunner11 Nov 2012 6:30 p.m. PST

It's a nice thought but it could get very fiddly in a big battle.

Knockman16 Nov 2012 8:26 a.m. PST

Quickly thought up, so caveat – totally not tabletop tested.

* Make sure Leader is already attached to Unit that wants to call in Fire Artillery Support;

* Activate Unit, successful then select ‘Aimed Fire' or ‘On Guard';

* ‘Aimed Fire' Action allows unit to use fire combat normally, but Leader calls in the Fire Support first – resolve this before unit firing. ‘On Guard' means the Fire Support can come in during the other player's turn, but still resolve the Target Acquisition attempt now;

* Target Acquisition attempt – Leader rolls D6 to do a successful Expertise check on the attached Unit's level.
FAIL = no target acquisition, carry on with resolving Unit's firing, and other Unit Activation attempts afterwards.
PASS Expertise check = place First Strike marker on the chosen target, and by the tabletop place a stack of Bombardment Counters marked 6, 5, 4, 3 and 2 with 6 at top of stack and 2 at the bottom, then resolve Unit's firing;

* Choose – attempt to Activate another Unit and discard top Bombardment Counter of the stack – or – call in Bombardment, take the current top Bombardment Counter of the stack and try to roll this number or greater on D6. If at any point a ‘1' is rolled, Bombardment lands but deviates. Use deviation dice method to see where it actually lands, and roll the Fire Points Dice for that type of fire support mission, using damage templates if relevant.

That way, every Activation attempt for another Unit you make after you place the First Strike marker removes a Bombardment Counter from the stack, thereby making it easier to land on target. You also stand the risk of losing the Initiative, delaying the Bombardment further, unless of course you have it on call as part of an ‘On Guard' set-up.

This will provide for indirect/off-table artillery support or airstrikes/ortillery (orbital artillery). Fire support could be from weapons with blast/damage templates, or from precision weapons attacking a specific unit/vehicle or location/building.

Just think of orbital beam lasers on call from the grid once a Ground unit and their Officer identify a worthy opponent who deserves illuminating….

May trial this myself this Sunday.

Knockman16 Nov 2012 8:31 a.m. PST

Or, alternately…

* Rolling the Bombardment Counter number or greater means it lands perfectly on target;

* Failing to roll the Bombardment Counter number means it deviates and lands wherever; and,

* Rolling a ‘1' loses the entire mission and no Bombardment takes place at all.

That might work better….

Capt Flash16 Nov 2012 4:07 p.m. PST

Knockman, I like your last post best. I think it's in step with Craig's commitment to KISS for FUBAR. How many D6 inches for the deviation? I'd say 2D6…

Lion in the Stars16 Nov 2012 8:05 p.m. PST

I tossed in deviation because that is something that artillery is, err… famous (?), infamous for. I can't count the number of times that I've read a book set in Vietnam or WWII where a unit in the book gets clobbered by short rounds from their own artillery or the shells overshoot the target and hit something else. Artillery is tricky business with lots of trial and error involved and really bad things can happen if the observer screws up. I don't think that is so much the case with modern artillery what with GPS and computers.

One of the current artillery-spotter devices (as I understand it) is basically a GPS with a laser in it, that normally tells you the location of where the laser is shining.

Unless it initially boots up (say, because you replaced the batteries). Then it tells you YOUR location.

Computers: making it even easier to accidentally call artillery on your own position.

Tgunner17 Nov 2012 3:58 p.m. PST

@ Knockman: Why not try out a die instead of counters?

Also maybe there needs to be a "special" action to cover for odd stuff like calling in artillery, investigating a location, or for whatever else comes along in your game and you need a figure to do something different.

stenicplus19 Nov 2012 8:47 a.m. PST

If there wasn't deviation I'd never get to roll my pretty deviation dice!! grin

Knockman27 Nov 2012 6:22 a.m. PST

@ TGunner: a single D6 is indeed handy – there's even the option for an Average D6 too I guess.

@ Capt Flash: I preferred the alternate too after a few re-reads and some attempts. I also have some dice from EM4 Miniatures that I use.

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