"It's Alive! A WRG 4th Edition battle" Topic

Two friends of mine (Bill Stewart and David Sullivan) and myself entered a time warp and fought an ancient's battle using WRG 4th Edition. It was 3rd century Romans versus Successors. I had no idea medium pikemen were so powerful. Of course in my hands they managed to lose the battle. We (myself and Bill), of the Successor persuasion, immediately advanced on the Romans. I think our plan, such as it was, was to use the three pike units to crush the Roman center and then surrender. I think it was to surrender, We had no idea what to do after that. Happily we were spared that dilemma. Dave promptly kicked out pike buts every which way but lose.

The way that happened was Bill, the military genius that he is, decided that our light infantry should be javelin men. We didn't even have any Cretan archers. Everybody has Cretan archers. Not us. His lame excuse was that's what the army lists said. Never mind there were no army lists with the Fourth edition. Back then you had to mine the original sources and lie about what you found there in order to justify the killer troop types you wanted. Ah, those were the good old days.

So, what happened, Bill, the military genius that he is, decided to screen his pikes as they advanced on the dreaded Roman bowmen. (You read that right. His pikes were going to take out the bowmen. Don't bother understanding it. You had to be there.) His advancing javelin men were fired on and became paralyzed with fear. They halted in line abreast in front of his pikes. This halted the pikes. If he had advanced through the lights he would have become disordered. As I found out, you don't want to become disordered. It's not good to be disordered. So we got these flipping archers holding up a unit of javelin men and a unit of pikemen. It was embarrassing.

I was in control (I'm using that term loosely) of two units of pikes on Bills left. I promptly headed for the Roman legions. No stinking archers for me. I was going after big game. Charge, I go into the vaunted legions. Unfortunately Dickius the Rash failed to notice that a stand of Bill's javelin men partly obstructed his right hand pike's advance. DISORDERED!!!! Instead of fighting with 32 figures, this genius is now fighting with 4 figures (half the front rank). You guessed it: broken and routed.

The other pike unit managed to push the Roman legion back. They probably would have eventually broken that legion except the other legion was now free to pick on my only unbroken pikes. It was one pike unit against two legions. It also broke. Bill did try to swing his pike unit around to help against the legions but it was too little too late. As Bill and I rode back to the Successor camp, the road was littered with crucified javelin men.

A fun time was had by all. And we decided more Fourth edition battles were in order.

Rich

I should add that we used 4th edition because we had the rules and because it was simultaneous movement. I abhor sequential movement. Bill and Dave were nice enough to humor me.

Dickius the Rash

The WRG 4th Edition rules are available for download here:

link

Mike,

Thanks, that is the one we used.

OK Rich the Rash,

It has been 25 years since I played WRG Ancients and I forgot that I regularly roll 4 using three dice, freezing my troops in place. I now know better but will probably make the same mistake next time. Of course I'm not the one that cunningly clipped and tripped over one skirmish figure, disordering his entire force.

It was a fun game and I hope we do it again. I hope David liked it too since he has the invincible Romans.

William the Hesitant.

It has been 25 years since I played WRG Ancients and I forgot that I regularly roll 4 using three dice, freezing my troops in place. I now know better but will probably make the same mistake next time. Of course I'm not the one that cunningly clipped and tripped over one skirmish figure, disordering his entire force.

You have to admit it took real talent for me to take a game in which we were certain to win and turn it into a decisive defeat. Those don't come along every day (I hope).

Dickius the rash

The WRG 4th Edition rules are available for download here:…

Too bad there's no translation!

WRG Ancients are not for the faint of heart. They put hair on your chest.

Rich,

You are right; dynasty destroying defeats take a special knack especially when we had him on the ropes. Next game I plan on giving all the skirmishers to you.

4th Edition WRG Ancients is not the same as 6th Edition which I call the Kitchen Sink rule set because it had everything including the sink. I played at it for some time but gave up with brain damage about the time 7th Edition came out in the mid-1980's.

There 4th Edition contains very few sections such as: "but not nor when, except during the exceptional use, of dart, sword, spear, lance, bow;] if not, nor mounted, on nor near, disordering circumstances, when if,,, but not nor may be fatigued or flummoxed within 23.2 cubits." that run rampant throughout the 6th Edition rules. Something happened to the author between 1975 and 1980. Maybe he fell into disordering circumstance.

Be that as it may, 4th Edition WRG Ancients was fun. I'm sure it had a lot to do with the other players and David's exquisitely painted A&A Romans.

William the Wimp.

Something happened to the author between 1975 and 1980. Maybe he fell into disordering circumstance.

He got within 30 paces of camels.

What Bill and Rich failed to mention was that Bill's pike's that were faced off against my 10-figure unit of LMI bowmen, were the elite pikes. Blocked by their own skirmishers from advancing. Of course the archers were in terrain that would have disordered the pikes anyway, so they might as well have charged through the skirmishers.

Now I have sufficient reason to finish the rest of my 3rd c. Romans and base them for WRG instead of rebasing them for FoG.

Blocked by their own skirmishers from advancing.

Seems like an unrealistic rule. Skirmishers would simply fade back or around the pike and let the true "Queens" of the battlefield do their nasty work!

As far as the rules, just reading a few pages from the link above made me cringe. I have to hand it to you guys. You seemed to have an enjoyable game, despite the rules. That is, after all, the point of wargaming, right? Enjoyment.

John, all rules have unrealistic aspects. They are, after all , games. As to the rules themselves, they were fairly easy to follow. The only real problem with the rules was our remembering them after 30 years (especially when you can't even remember what you had for breakfast). As Dave and Bill wrote, they were fun enough that we plan on more games with them.

You are right; dynasty destroying defeats take a special knack especially when we had him on the ropes. Next game I plan on giving all the skirmishers to you.

Oh right?! You're doing this because of my brilliant use of light infantry javelin men in connection with medium infantry spearmen. You remember that outstanding decision to charge through withdrawing light infantry (disorganizes both). After David finally stopped laughing, he graciously asked if I wanted to take that move back. I think I'm going to transfer to the camel corp.

Dickius the Rash

Seems like an unrealistic rule. Skirmishers would simply fade back or around the pike and let the true "Queens" of the battlefield do their nasty work!

In WRG 4th, Light Infantry can move through other troops without a problem as long as the other troops are stationary. If the other troops move through the Light Infantry, they become disordered. Once you're in striking distance with the pike, you have to spend a period retiring the skirmishers and then charge in the following period. You can't just charge through the skirmishers with no ill effect.

That's a pretty standard mechanism for interpenetration. I've seen similar in dozens of rules sets. You can't just wade through your skirmishers like they were a low surf or expect them to scatter like pigeons when you move through.

In Bill's case, the skirmishers got a "Halt 2 Periods" result on a reaction test. They were milling about uselessly in place and couldn't be retired.

Charging through to the bowmen anyway, might not be a wise decision. Disordered pike fight with half their front rank and don't impose the -1 on their opponents for facing pikes. Also, because pikes require two hands to wield, they count as shieldless in hand to hand combat. That means both sides get a +2 for fighting shieldless MI of LMI. The result would be the pikemen counting four figures at a factor of 5 and the bowmen counting 10 figures at a factor of 4 (not counting the random dice factor for either). The bowmen inflict 20 and the pikes inflict 10. Being disordered and recieving twice as many casualties as inflicted would break the pikes.

As far as the rules, just reading a few pages from the link above made me cringe.

Those were the days, John, when rules were rules. Not some weak tea served up in a 50-page full color extravaganza with more pictures and drawings than words. In those days giants walked the earth. To veteran gamers like us, rules like these were our milk and meat. You won't see our like again.

I think I'm going to transfer to the camel corp.

I'm painting the camel corps now.

I've seen similar in dozens of rules sets.

Probably WRG like knockoffs, which were plentiful in the 1970s and 1980s.

You can't just wade through your skirmishers like they were a low surf or expect them to scatter like pigeons when you move through.

I always liked the Armati take on this: formed unit, friend or foe, that contacted skirmishers simply dispersed them. I would doubt that skirmishers would impeded or disorder a massed formation. They'd simply get out of the way. But then again, it's all a matter of "historical" interpretation, so to speak.

I think that interpenetrations, whether involving loosely ordered troops or more closely formed troops, is a matter of the level of abstraction that is inherent in the rules. Armati abstracts much more of the detail than WRG Ancients. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of opinion and one's taste in rules mechanisms.

Since I cut my teeth playing WRG Ancients, I've always preferred them and they tend to be the standard by which I evaluate other sets. One of the reasons I like FoG so much is that they carry on the spirit of the earlier WRG rules (pre-DBx) while using more refined mechanisms. FoG does not allow charging through skirmishers.

A prime historical example of heavy troops disordered by charging through their own skirmishers would be the French knights at Crecy who slashed through the Genoese crossbowmen in order to get at the English.

Generally, skirmishers were used to harass an enemy battle line or to prevent your battle line from being harassed. Since both sides would typically employ skirmishers, the early phase of a battle was a contest for dominance of the ground between the battle lines. Once the battle lines were close enough to get at each other, usually after one sides' skirmishers had been forced to withdraw, any remaining skirmishers retired behind their own battle line to be held in reserve for other purposes, such as harassing the enemy's flanks, providing a rear guard, or to be held in readiness to pursue and harass a broken enemy. They don't simply disperse.

You have to bear in mind that, in most historical examples, the skirmishers weren't unorganized, grabasstic, oiks chucking rocks and javelins or shooting bows. They were FORMED TROOPS, however loosely ordered, that were under the command of leaders. In many cases, such light troops were elites (e.g., Roman lanciarii) or highly valued mercenaries (e.g., Balearic slingers, Agrianian javelin-men, or Cretan archers).

In WRG, you need to actually move your skirmishers to the rear to get them out of the way. It prevents you from having your cake and eating it. I.e., you get the protection of the skirmishers, but they also prevent you from dashing through as if they were a mist. You have to expose your battle line for one period before you can charge in. I like that limitation. It makes you think ahead.

A prime historical example of heavy troops disordered by charging through their own skirmishers would be the French knights at Crecy who slashed through the Genoese crossbowmen in order to get at the English.

The Genoese were formed troops, not skirmishers. I interpret skirmishers as groups "formed" loosely, without regard to maintaining ranks and files. The Genoese during the period of Crecy most probably formed and indeed carried a pavise for protection, or had a spearman carrying a pavise deployed to their front. From Osprey:

With a sound of trumpets and drums the Genoese crossbowmen and their accompanying spearmen moved forward in three stages, each pause being signalled by a shout which would have rippled along the Genoese front as the order was passed from unit to unit. This enabled the foot soldiers to remain in formation and to adjust their dressing at each pause. Their role was to get close enough to break up the enemy line with crossbow fire, whereupon the French cavalry would charge and take advantage of any weakness in the English front. In fact, the Genoese only seem to have shot their crossbows the third time they halted, when they were about 150 metres from the Prince of Wales' battle.

Generally, skirmishers were used to harass an enemy battle line or to prevent your battle line from being harassed. Since both sides would typically employ skirmishers, the early phase of a battle was a contest for dominance of the ground between the battle lines. Once the battle lines were close enough to get at each other, usually after one sides' skirmishers had been forced to withdraw, any remaining skirmishers retired behind their own battle line to be held in reserve for other purposes, such as harassing the enemy's flanks, providing a rear guard, or to be held in readiness to pursue and harass a broken enemy. They don't simply disperse.

True enough, but in Armati, for instance, the dispersion represents exactly what you describe: skirmishers falling back behind the main battlelines, once opponents are close. It does not represent the wholesale slaughter of skirmishers, but their effective removal from the battle because they are no longer really needed, etc., etc., etc.

Also, the term "skirmish" seems to mean different things throughout the medieval period. It can mean "fighting", "to protect", even to "duel" or "fence." If I recall correctly it comes into English via French, who got it from Italian "scaramuccia."

My point is that it is all rather vague, and so much depends on the rules authors' own interpretation of history. Skirmishers are no exception. So, if you want to interpret skirmishers as having some formation or as presenting an obstacle to other troops, then fine. It's all just fantasy anyway, right?

Well, not necessarily. We find in Greek writings that light infantry was formed up in rank and file behind, next to, or in front of the pikes. It has always been my contention that there are no skirmishers. There are only light infantry that can skirmish as well as fight in closed ranks. Thus the javelin men were formed units that could skirmish, WRG and Armati not withstanding. They were not skirmishers. But it is only a game. (hey, where it the emoticon sticking his tongue out?)

Rich