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"WRG 1950 - 1985 Dice Question(s)" Topic

Wargames Rules for All-Arms Land Warfare from Platoon to Batallion Level 1925-1950 and 1950-2000

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Mako1105 Apr 2015 3:01 a.m. PST

I've been reading over these a bit, and am thinking about trying them out for some quick-play, modern games.

After reading them, and looking at the charts, I've come up with a few baffling questions.

I went back and re-read the introduction, various sections I want to try out first (tank vs. tank and IFV combat), and am now a little perplexed.

Most of the suppression and damage charts top out at a 6, and you need to roll equal to, or higher than the value listed for weapon type, range, etc., for success (presumably, since the values are higher at the greater range = harder to achieve the desired results at longer ranges).

Since they top out at 6, and since, IIRC, the WWII WRG rules used D6s for all dice rolls, I assume(d) that this set of rules uses D6s as well, but I can't find that stated specifically, anywhere in the rules (perhaps it's there, and I'm just missing it).

The "Target Acquistion" rules do seem to suggest using a D6 for those die rolls.

On the Suppression Chart:

All of the suppression mods are positive modifiers (none make it easier to hit the target), meaning you add points to the die/dice rolled to determine the chance to hit (all mods make hitting more difficult), and/or if you hit, or do damage.

One of the charts that is throwing me is the "Achieving Hits of Suppression with Aimed Fire", on page 18 (see note below, for adding "dice results" together, since I just found that mentioned here, on the bottom of page 18, and the top of page 19 again, as well not sure which "dice", or how many to add together though).

The 20mm 57mm Cannon, and/or AA says an "8" hits at 3,000m range (must roll >= to hit, presumably).

Similarly, if firing HEAT, except "G" (which means German HEAT weapons, I suspect), HE-FS, or 100mm or 115mm APFSDS, you need a "7" at the 3,000m range (again, must roll >= to hit, again, presumably).

If firing HVAP, or 76mm APDS, you need a "10" at 3,000m range (must roll >= to hit, presumably).

So, should I be using 1D6, for the die rolls on the charts, as I originally thought, more dice, or other, larger dice?

2D6, 1D10, 1D12, or perhaps even a 1D20, instead of a single D6 for Suppression determination?

Most of the "Knocking Out AFV", and "Knocking Out Bunkers or Soft Targets" lines end in either a 5 or a 6, so again, should I just use 1D6 for these die rolls?

Again, another perplexing chart is the "Knocking Out or Neutralizing with HE, or Bomblets", on page 28, where many of the minimum scores needed exceed 6 by a wide margin, and there are minimal subtraction modifiers to the die rolls (a maximum of 3 points of reduction), plus a number of modifiers to add to the die (dice?) rolls. Some of the minimum to-hit values are in the 3 6 point range, but there are many others that range from 7 to as high as 14.

With a -3 modifier, only a "9" or less would be possible on a 1D6 die roll.

Perhaps I should be rolling a 2D6, 1D10, 1D12, or a D20 for this chart too?

The top of page 27 for this last chart seems to provide a hint, where it says if the needed result is greater than six, "dice" in the normal way. Any score other than a 4 with this "dice" is a miss (not sure if they mean a singular die, and made a grammatical error, or if more than one die should really be rolled = "dice" as stated in the rules. Again, the type of die, or dice are not specified).

If the score is 4, dice again and add the scores of the two dice (not sure if this means just add the scores of the two re-rolled "dice" by themselves, or if you add both of them to the die roll of 4, also). Again, it isn't clear what type of die, or "dice" to use. [Note this process was mentioned on the bottom of page 18, and the top of page 19, for Suppressive Fire, IIRC, so it appears the process is the same for the various sections].

So, sorry for the longwinded explanations/questions/examples.

Any ideas on what size dice to use, and how many?

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP05 Apr 2015 4:44 a.m. PST

I had a feeling it was a D10 based game – but I can't see that in the rules on the WRG site – maybe it just said on the playsheet ?

Gennorm05 Apr 2015 5:25 a.m. PST

It used d6. If you need more than a score of 6 to hit you must roll 1d6. If it is a 4 roll again and add the scores, so to get 8 you need a 4 followed by a 4 or higher.

Personal logo David Manley Supporting Member of TMP05 Apr 2015 5:26 a.m. PST

From memory the rules explain that a d6 is used and that for scores over a 6 a 6 must be thrown first, followed by a subsequent roll of 5+ for a 7, 6+ for an eight, or something like that. I admit I can't remember the details as its nearly 20 years since I last used them.

Personal logo David Manley Supporting Member of TMP05 Apr 2015 5:28 a.m. PST

Oh well, I was close :)

Cracking set of rules though, we really enjoyed them.

tmy 193905 Apr 2015 5:30 a.m. PST

The G HEAT round refers to the AMX-30 (French) 105mm Obus G HEAT round. The warhead was mounted on ball bearings so it wasn't affected by the spin of the rifling making it more effective then a HEAT round that was spun like most other 105mm HEAT rounds.

No advantage over a modern smooth bore of course.

I know I played with D6 only. I do remember you threw more then 1 dice for multiple weapons or barrels but I am not sure that would explain the numbers you are looking at.

Enjoy the rules, it's a long time since I played them but they can give you a good fun game.

UshCha05 Apr 2015 8:45 a.m. PST

Dave Manly got it from what I remember. I did a bit on these rules (a very small bit) and I got Phil to sign my copy. Good set in some ways but as usual for the time range obsessed an the D6 was never right. Some inconsistencies in weapon effects. However his mode rules lead the way as revolutionary! MG would not be what it is without folk like Phil leading the way.

kyoteblue05 Apr 2015 9:03 a.m. PST

You may need to look for answers to this on some other war gamers websites Mako11.

Dances with Clydesdales05 Apr 2015 9:56 a.m. PST

We used to play these rules years ago. Gennorm is correct. Roll 1 d6 if a exactly a 4 is rolled roll again and add the two rolls.

JCD196405 Apr 2015 1:33 p.m. PST

Gennorm & Dances with Clydesdales are correct. We played these rules a lot back in the day. The Bruce Rea-Taylor army lists (1985 Tabletop Games) that complement the WRG rules are a must have if you can find copies.

Mako1105 Apr 2015 2:56 p.m. PST

Thanks for all the replies, answers, and info on the "G" HEAT round (I was unfamiliar with it).

I really appreciate them.

Any clue on the last question, e.g. how to get to 11 to 14 on the HE Chart, with 2D6?

[Note now I think I may have answered my own question, after pondering on it a bit see below]

To knock out Bunkers with HE or bomblets, you need a score of 11 to 14, in some cases.

If I've understood you all correctly, I roll exactly 4 on the first die, I can roll a second time with 1D6, and I then add that result to the first, giving me a possible 5 10 points total (4 + 1D6) result [note I now think this may be wrong see below].

Or, does "dice again" and add the scores of the two dice really mean, roll 2D6 this time, and add the scores of just them together?

This second option seems to make a bit more sense to me, since that resolves the following issue on the HE/Bomblet chart, where otherwise, it is impossible to get a 14 on 2D6, even with the -3 modifier (firing 18+ guns at a bunker), using the system of the initial die roll result of 4 + 1D6 I mentioned above.

With the 2D6 dice re-roll option, it is just possible to roll a 14, if you roll an 11 or 12, and then apply the modifiers for the number of weapons firing on the target.

I think that makes more sense.

Do you agree?

Mako1105 Apr 2015 2:57 p.m. PST

Thanks for the tips on the army lists.

Fortunately, I have those too, from eons ago.

JCD196405 Apr 2015 5:26 p.m. PST

In the case of airburst HE or medium mortars versus bunkers, it is impossible to cause a knock out. However neutralisation occurs on half the score needed, so a score of 7+ will affect the bunker's occupants but not kill them.

In our games I recall that the standard artillery support for any NATO force was 18 M109 155mm SP (off table of course). If you could get all 18 tubes firing on a target it was lethal (in the case of bunkers the knock out score would be 7).

Dances with Clydesdales05 Apr 2015 7:15 p.m. PST

I dug out my copy of the rules (June 1979). I'll quote from the quick reference chart.

"If scores needed to hit or suppress with aimed or suppressive fire, or KO or neutralize with area HE or bomblets, are more than 6, dice again if first die scores 4 and add the two scores. This does not apply to acquisition."

Also from page 19: "If the score needed for suppression is greater than 6, dice in the usual way. Any score with this dice except a 4 is a miss. If the score is 4, dice again and ad the scores of the two dice."

Page 18:

"If the total needed for a hit or suppression is greater than 6, dice in the usual way. Any score with this dice except a 4 is a miss. If the score is 4, dice again and add the scores of the two dice."

The way I've understood it is if the first die is exactly 4 then roll a second die and add them together.

Dances with Clydesdales05 Apr 2015 7:23 p.m. PST

From the 1925 – 1950 set(June 1973), words it slightly differently.
Page 15:

"If the final total required to hit is greater than 6, throw 2 dice in succession. The first of these must score 4. If the other scores 3, count the score as 7, 4 as 8, 5 as 9, 6 as 10".

Mako1105 Apr 2015 7:29 p.m. PST

Thanks for that.

So, it appears to be impossible to get the 14 points needed for some weapons, but you can get 11 – 13, if you're lucky, with the To-Hit modifiers for multiple weapons at the same target.

A maximum of 10 can be rolled, with the 2D6, and after that, you need die roll modifiers to reach 11 – 13 for some targets.

I appreciate the clarification(s).

Weasel06 Apr 2015 9:43 a.m. PST

Curiously, this seems to be the reverse of the old GW "roll a 6 followed by a 4+" method.
I wonder if any of the Warhammer boys played WRG stuff.

As an aside, thank you for mentioning this Mako. Decided to pop on ebay and pick up two old copies (I know they're available in PDF but I sometimes prefer dead trees).

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP06 Apr 2015 4:26 p.m. PST

I wonder if any of the Warhammer boys played WRG stuff.

They did.

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