"cavalry in HC (specifically Normans); thoughts?" Topic

I've been using HC for a lot of dark age battles, Vikings and Saxons, which are infantry based, but I finally got enough Normans and mounted troops to make it worthwhile to field in HC.

it seems that a valid tactic for Cav (or maybe any troops with a higher clash and moderate sustained) is to do multiple charges; charge in, let the enemy retreat without a followup, enemy can charge back but Cav will counter charge, etc… this way the Cav will always be using the clash value. Has this been done? it might be super obvious but this is the first time I thought about Cav..

when it comes to Normans and checking the medieval list, is seems that they are listed as Heavy Cav with Lance. I like the hvy Cav as that seems appropriate, but i doubt the lance. Normans didn't use a couched lance but maybe the rule is there just to provide some extra punch.

anyway, if anyone has some scenario design thoughts for Cav or just some helpful observations for using Cav in HC, I'd appreciate it.

If you let the unit fall back, their best play is to shoot the Knights with their close range attacks and hope to shake you. Infantry charging well formed cavalry is suicide in HC.

I play in the Late Roman period and have found cavalry to be effective in HC depending on their type and deployment. Light cavalry are good as scout and to harass the enemy, Heavy cavalry as the outflanking force, and my favorite, the cataphracts (the IS-II heavy tank of their day), as the infantry steam roller. The rules in HC match closely the tactics for this period well.

Infantry with long spear are good at defense against all cavalry, but not at an offensive charge.

Against a good infantry defense with long spear, I like to harass with the light, while flanking attack with heavy, then steam roller with the cataphracts. HC rules facilitates these ancient tactics well.

You do all this while you opponent tries it on you, unless you have Romans and your opponent has a force of Germanic warbands and not much cavalry. In that case you have the advantage. Combined arms armies in Dark Age battles are deadly. Oh, and do not forget the archers and horse archers!

HC?

Hail, Caesar!
Norman cavalry do seem to have beenr relatively effective compared to similarly armed cavalryi n southern Italy, so giving them a fighting bonus seems okay. Presumably the Saxon shieldwall will tend to negate it whilst the infantry remain formed.

Some Normans are shown with what may be a couched lane:
Norman knight with couched lance in the Bayeux Tapestry (scene 51)
Norman knight with couched lance in the Bayeux Tapestry (scene 52)
and from southwestern France:
Cavalryman with couched lance in the Beatus de Saint-Sever, 1028-1072AD, Southwestern France

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

thanks for the responses!

I think setting up good scenarios is going to be the key thing. after reading the responses and looking around, I've landed on some thoughts:

-I don't want to Normans to do long sweeping flank charges against their saxon / viking foes. mainly because the saxons won't have any cav of their own, and this sounds unfun for the saxon player. to stop this i think it will be as simple as putting the norman cav in divisions that also include infantry so that the norman cav can't range to far without minuses. this will also promote what i think was the typical norman tactic of shoot-infantry assault-cav charge, using combined arms.

-no 'long spears' as i don't want to nulify the cav charge, and Saxons / Vikings can use the 'close ranks' rule to simulate the shieldwall.

-i've yet to play a game, but i'll leave the lance rule in for now and evalate how effective it is purely as a game mechanic. as for the pictures of normans charging couched lance style, while i'm sure some Normans held thier spears underarm like that of a couched lance what is really needed is a stirup and a high backed saddle. they might of had stirups but i'm pretty positive no high backed saddles. without it the rider is thrown form the horse on contact.

-i conceptualize Normans in HC as being a smaller but more specialized / elite force. with infantry based forces i primarily use heavy inf for thegns / hird; med inf for cearols / bondi; and small skirimish units with bows. for Normans i plan knights to be hvy cav; norman spearmen as hvy inf, crossbow units as med infantry with bows; and arches as standard sized light infantry with bows.

hopefully i'll get some play testing in soon. in the meantime, if anyone has any thoughts on how they plan scenarios for HC i'd be all ears. i've done some but as i've said it was for infantry based forces which i think are more easy to balance (ie, give one side less units but the high ground).

-Stew

There aren't any crossbowmen in the Bayeux Tapestry, but French crossbowmen are portrayed at the Siege of Jerusalem in Commentaries of Hayman on Ezekiel, Auxerre, France, c. 1000AD

See also a French Crossbowman in Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066 by Ian Heath, based on the Commentaries of Hayman on Ezekiel, "William of Poitiers records their use at Hastings".

Druzhina
11th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

(ah, i missed the reply, so sorry for the late response)

i'm going to rate the crossbow units as medium infantry with bows simply because several of the figures are in chain mail. i'll make no difference though between bows and crossbows for shooting stats.

SOOoooo several months and some games later….

I said I would evaluate and now I have. I have played about 5 scenarios where the Normans have 6 units of Hvy Cav with Lance. the typical Norman army would have 3 divisions, each division with 2-3 Cav, 2-3 Hvy infantry, and 1-2 archers in open order. the main opponents would be Saxons, also with 3 divisions and each one with 2-3 Thegns, 3-4 cearols, and 0-1 small skirmish. 1 Div would have some Huscarls in place of the Thegns.

I have concluded that the Norman Cav is too powerful as in all games it just runs over the infantry, every time.
there were even 2 games where I recycled a whole Saxon division, and the Normans still plowed through them. it didn't matter if Normans charged uphill against closed ranks. the losses for the Normans were always pretty light and the very heavy the Saxons.

so in the future for my dark age games I'm either going to reduce the amount of cav or remove the Lance rule. probably remove the Lance as who wants to play with less models. the 9 clash with the Lance basically assures the Normans win the fight by such a margin that the Saxons have a hard time passing the break test. I want the Cav charge to be fun but not as dependable to break the line.

just my 2 cents, but thought I would come a report back in my own thread. : )

If you want the Saxons to be a bit more robust have you considered adding a special rule to them – Valiant, or the like? It depends how badly they're being spanked in the charge round. I'd expect charging cavalry to win the first round, even uphill against a shield wall, but not by such a margin that they're consistently shattering elite units on the charge. Then when they're bogged down in combat they lose a lot of their advantages, especially if the Saxons have double-handed axes. Giving the Saxons a re-roll for that first round might at least make it less predictable.

I did consider it, and thought about using long spears…

but my thought process is; why add a special rule to counter act another special rule, when it's probably easier to just remove the offending special rule.

plus, I mainly put on HC games at conventions, where the players are unfamiliar with the rules. So less special rules to remember the easier it is.

anyway, i'll try it first for awhile without the Lance rule. like i said I could also just use less Cav units (but what fun is that?!) I want the Cav the be dangerous but not as powerful as it is.

as a side note; the saxon Huscarls had the special rules of; 2handed axes, Valiant, Elite, tough fighters, and the one that re-rolls one morale save. They also have a clash of 8. They usually hold their own.

got the run time error / lock! yay!

No unit in HC can count on using its clash value every time, because when you hit the shield wall and it passes its break test, you will be trapped in melee using your sustained value.

No unit in HC can count on using its clash value every time……

Tell that to the Romans! Ouch!