"AoA and The Lord Of The Rings ??" Topic

Has Anyone looked at doing TLotR with AoA? Just thought I would through a bone out there

AoA? What's that?

"Armies of Arcana", I assume.

I was thinking Armies of Antiquity from WAB.

If so use the Byzantine list for Gondor, the Norman list for Rohan, the Saxon or Viking list for Uruk Hai, the Indian list for Easterlings and the Samurai list for all the heroes.

You're on your own for Ringwraiths, I can't think of anything that is capable of knocking siege catapults off of walls and killing a half dozen knights at a time and yet is able to be chased off by an arrow, a flash light or a stick on fire.

Hey. There is actually a Yahoo group for using WAB for LOTR. It is called Middle Earth Battles and the url is:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/middle_earth_battles/

John

"Armies of Arcana", I assume.

Is a correct assumsion sorry

Yes, I would like to hear about Armies of Arcana with LOTR also.

I use AoA with my GW LotR figs for larger scale battles. I love it.

Another bonus, if you have the GW LotR dice, the 'one' is replaced by some cool symbol (horse for rohan, hand for saruman, eye for mordor, tree for gondor), and in AoA, lower is better.

Do you have LotR units done in AoA stats? That would be excellent.

Rev

I don't think AoA is the best rule set available for doing Middle Earth battles.

AoA was created, playtested, balanced, re-balanced, and just in general built from the ground up with the magic system tightly integrated into the rules. Simply removing the magic system is a problem, in terms of play balance, value of troops for the points, etc.

Yet, removing the magic system is exactly what you'd want to do if you wanted to game Middle Earth. Magic was very localized and not at all a major factor in all of the major battles of Middle Earth. The earth-shaking spells of AoA (units disapearing from one side of the board and reappearing on the other side, units flying, etc.) do not give anything like the "feel" of a Tolkienesque battle.

IMHO, if you want to game Middle Earth, start with your favorite historical ruleset, then just add a couple of modifications to handle Ogres/Trolls, heroes, etc.

Of course, your mileage may vary, and AoA is a fine ruleset in its own right, apart from whether it's best suited for recreating the good professor's battles.

andrewgr, I agree about the unsuitability of many fantasy rulesets for Middle earth. I converted a Dark Age set for use with my regular opponents.

I agree that changes will influence the overall values of just about any game system, at least a little.

Still, AoA was also designed to be expanded, with a point system that allows the construction of troops from the ground up. As such, I believe it is one of the best systems available for doing this work.

After all, historical games are also generally constructed, balanced, playtested, etc, for representing their era, and changes in that to allow for fantasy beasts, flying, etc, will influence the game balance too.

Rev

So anybody got any lists for LOTR? Sorta seems like this would have occured to someone else long before this. :D

Thanks,

John

I've never seen any lists, nor have I ever heard of anyone putting lists together, which surprises me somewhat, given that AoA players usually come up with all sorts of things, and I really do think it is the perfect system for LotR.

Rev

I'm not enough of a LotR geek to be able to put together good representations of those armies. And I mean geek in a positive way, I just don't know the details of a true afficionado. To me, there are like 1 type of Rohan troop (elite barbarian cavalry), 1 oruk-hai (Black Orc trooper, maybe add a bowman), a couple of orcs and goblins (just the base troops from the list), three or four Minas Tirith troops (Take from Barons of Lyonesse list directly), 4 elves (High elves, with maybe a wood elf scout).

Heroes can stay the same, with the magic weapons/armor just counting towards the general impressiveness of heroes in the Tolkein world. A friend has suggested doubling the wounds of heroes but I think it is unnecessary.

Dropping magic out of AoA is very simple though. Don't take wizards or other spell casters. Then multiply the number of wounds a model has by its magic resistance, and subtract that from the points of a model. Most human and orc infantry will come out 1 point less, cavalry two points. Elves double that, dwarfs quadruple that (very magic resistant in AoA). I think almost all of the troops in the main books could come straight out of the lists that currently exit in this way. Maybe you'd want something for the nazgul and mounts that would be new, and probably the elephants need to be a lot bigger.

It would be exceptionally easy to come up with all new lists for whatever you wanted to do, though. AoA adapts easily, and the point system does give you a very fair sense of the value of a troop when you are done.

Maybe I'll see if we can get a LOTR game together in the next few weeks.

(Hubris: noun. To argue with the rules' author about his own set of rules.)

I'm not at all convinced that just adjusting the point costs of the figures by the amount the paid for magic resistance will yield correct point costs. In particular, I think a lot of the big, scary monsters cost as "little" as they do because they are targets for spells, which cause damage at a distance before the monsters have a chance to engage. I think you'll find that they are more effective without magic on the board. Also, I believe that missile fire will be disproportionately more effective without magic, because one of the first uses of magic in every game I've played is either to protect your units from missile fire (Guardian Wind, stoneskin, etc.), or else to take them out in some other way (flying a unit into contact, etc.).

But of course I haven't tried it, so I could be wrong.

Nah, Hubris is writing the rules to begin with. I play a lot of games where there is no magic defense against missile fire. Getting into melee combat quickly is still probably the best defense against missile fire. Unless you are fighting undead, which won't be relevant in LOTR much.

I think spells against monsters are pretty rare in the games we play, unless it is very big or very scary. magic is more typically used to buff your own troops or inhibit enemy troops. Troops still rule most AoA games.

There won't be many of the big scary monsters anyway in a LOTR game,most of them don't exist. Ents, Huorns, cave trolls, eagles, wraith mounts seem like the worst.

Hey Thane and everyone esle. So bottom line is that there are no LOTR lists? Too bad. I would like to see how the rules would have worked with LOTR.

Thanks,

John

Well, I use a list, but it's a 'work in progress' as I'm never satisfied with how accurately my assumptions apply to Middle-Earth. I'm not a super Tolkien geek, nor a history buff. Tolkien drew a lot of inspiration for his cultures from historical ones, I never really know if my stats are 'on the money.' Every time I play with them I customize or change something. In the haphazard state that my lists exist now, I would be embarrassed to show them to others. I always want to over do it too. I like to make Rohan have five types of cavalry, divided into different functions. I like to give every different combatant on the table something to differentiate it from the others.

It's tough though. Making some things as powerful as Tolkien described them and to still be able to use them in a game is a difficult task. TAke the Balrog for instance. It's terribly powerful. If you aren't using Gandalf and a ton of good heroes, you're going to end up with basically The Balrog against 100 good troops. What kind of game is that?

And heroes are a big thing too. One set of stats may be for Aragorn during his 30's, another set for Aragorn during the War of the Ring. Do this for each character and it can get bewildering. Especially for characters like Elrond and Gandalf that have been around for so many years and experienced so much change.

Still, the games I played that were most enjoyable were similar to what Thane suggested. Taking certain stat lines from the base lists included with the game and nudging them this way or that just a bit to make them fit in reasonable with the fluff.

One cool thing about AoA is that mass has meaning in the game, so even something like a balrog hitting a large enough mass of troops can be repulsed, overrun, and even killed even if the combat skills are completely mismatched. So even a 20 wound balrog could not be sloppy in where it goes and what it fights.

Actually, there is a giant army that is a less extreme example of this.

Today, Wolfgang and I played a 15mm game trying out AoA without magic, using armies compatible with LOTR (Orcs and Uruk-Hai vs. a mix of Gondor (Barons), Rohan, and Dwarves. It worked very smoothly, though it was somewhat less deadly without magic.

I think making official lists will be a good thing to make it easy for people. I'll try to do it this week and put it up for comment on the Yahoo group. I think Elves may need to be somewhat more butch, and a few special things have new stats made (Cave trolls are way better than average AoA trolls), and making some tougher heros.

Oh, and I'm thinking of increasing melee skills to make it more deadly. Something to playtest once, anyway.

Hey Thane. That sounds great. I would be curious to see the lists.

What is the URL for the Yahoo group?

Thanks,
John

Thane are you out there?
See previous post.
Thanks,
John

The Thanes Games Yahoo group is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thanesgames/

Thank you Mr. Gross!

John

Hey sory all I have been off line for the past week this is great I did not think my question would generate this much responce Thane I look forward to seeing what comes up at your yahoo group

Thank You All

Sorry for any SP errors

Strider

Sorry its taken longer to do it than I planned, I've go other distractions right now. Still will try to put one up by friday.

So its taken longer than I thought it would, nothing new there.

Here's a few things I've done, got a few more questions too.

I've given teh Elves first strike across the board. I think this is the best simulation of their combat prowess, as it both increases their offensive ability and reduces the quality of attacks they should recieve back. Wood Elves Infiltrate. Elf Cavalry is heavy armor, instead of medium.

Basic Dwarves I gave a point of strength too, oterhwise they are the same. I've only got warriors and crossbows listed as troop types.

Rohirrim have dismounted, regular, and "ouriders", which I meant to be the guys always in teh field patroling. These guys have bows. Does that fit the model? They have a skill 3 lance attack from horseback, and medium armor. Their horses have a strength of 1.

I've got woodsmen and woodsmen archers, anything else needed?

Beorn-lings - Anyone have any idea what they would be like? I'm guessing high strength, multiple wounds but I'm not positive.

Rangers have evasion 1, 2 skill 3 attacks, forester.

Need to put Ents and Huorns in, I figure ents would be about 8 wounds, Huorns about 3 wounds.

For Evil, I've got Mountain Goblins to cover Moria and the rest of the "wild" sort, Orcs for Saurons minions, and Uruk-Hai for Isengard. Mountain goblins have the poor morale of AoA goblins, Orcs are just like the orcs, and Uruk Hai have 2 wounds, but are only skill 2. Their bowmen do not have long bows, but instead have Str (2) bows.

Wargs I have as 2 wound creatures, which can take a rider (3 wounds) or be left alone. Mountain goblins ride wolves. Both Wolves and Wargs can be bought without riders, in which case they count as Berserk. this may not be exactly right, but I think the rules simulate their behavior well - they charge whatever is closest, don't notice their fallen comerades on the way in, and the loss of figures during the morale phase represents them being killed OR driven off individually and not coming back (they aren't going to be rallied).

Cave Trolls have 6 wounds, armor 2, 6 skill 2 attacks at Str 3. Olag Hai have 8 Wounds, armor 2, and 6 skill 3 attacks at Str 3. Armored Olag Hai have Armor 4.

Should the Haradrim have light or medium armor? I was leaning towards light. I've got warriors, pikes, archers, cavalry and Heavy cavalry for them. The Murmakil have 10 wounds, Armor 2 (missile +3), 12/2 Str 3 melee attacks, and 15/3 Str (3) ramming. They are going to be very tough to bring down with normal units. But I still wonder if 10 wounds is enough, lol.

I haven't down the howdas on their backs, I'm thinking probably a 20 man capacity? I may make the Murmakil with howda a single model to simplify record keeping a bit.

What I'm planning to do for characters is to get rid of magic armor and weapons for normal leaders, but then have true named heroes that have very high wounds, fixed armor saves and magic weapons. Such as, Aragorn having 8 wounds , armor 3 fixed, evasion 1, with say 4 or 6 attacks. Does that seem like a reasonable simulation of the power of the LOTR heros?

Nice, looks very good.

Although, there is little or no evidence that the dwarves used crossbows (to my knowledge) in the books. But in the Hobbit they definitely used bows (short bows I presume).

I'd make the Trolls have fewer attacks to represent their slow movement, but I'd make those few attacks very powerful. Ents and Trolls would likely be the strongest creatures next to Cold Drakes or Dragons.

What about Wild Men? Poorly organized and ill-equipped but terribly savage. Perhaps the Barbarians fit them well enough.

How about Woses? Definitely they'd have infiltrate. Probably have short range blowguns and hand weapons. They'd be a lot like rangers, but not nearly as tough and with little to no armor.

I'd give the Uruk-Hai crossbows instead of bows. I'm not sure if there's a precedent in the books for this (I'm not certain there are any crossbows in the books actually) I think it fits very well. They would have them if anyone would.

I would go with light armor for the Haradrim. They were mostly described as using scimitars in the books. The Rohan cavalry rolled right over them, except for the Mumakil.

Easterlings are a tough call. Very little of them is actually described in the books, except that they had fell axes. I like their depiction in the movies (though their banner is actually the one described for the Haradrim (I suppose they could be marching under the same standard though)). In the case of the movie, they would highly disciplined, wear heavy armor, weild halberds/pole-axes, and use no cavalry.

The Variags of Khand are also a tough call. About all we know is that they looked something like half-trolls, but had white eyes and red tongues. Fierce monstrosities they seem. I'd make them kind of a cross between a Barbarian and a Cave Troll as far as stats go. But really, they are open to a lot of speculation.

I would have the Olog-Hai move slightly faster than the Cave Trolls.

Gondorian Warriors would be mail clad and using a variety of weapons from spears, pikes, long bows, and sword/shield. At least, that's how I envision them. Cavalry, if any, is up in the air. Perhaps 'medium' between the lightning fast Rohirrim and the heavy clad Knights of Dol Amroth.

Gondorian Citadel Guard would be as normal Gondorian Warriors but slightly beefed up and possibly wearing heavy armor. I seem to recall either the Fountain Guard or the Citadel Guard wearing ancient mithril armor.

Beornings - definitely high strength with multiple wounds. Likely no weapons, just claws. Though there were bows at Carrock, I'd doubt the Beornings would use them (definitely not in Bear-form). Beorn in the Battle of Five Armies was quite a hero. I'd make him like the other Beornings but significantly better, he should probably be Fearsome too.

Love the ideas for Wargs; that's perfect.

The Axemen of Lossarnach are described as: "well-armed and bearing great battle-axes; grim-face they were, and shorter and somewhat swarthier than any men that Pippin had yet seen in Gondor."

The leader of the Axemen of Lossarnach, Forlong the Fat, is described as "a man of wide shoulders and huge girth, but old and grey-bearded, yet mail-clad and black helmed and bearing a long heavy spear."

The other men from the outlands of Gondor are described as:

"The men of Ringlo Vale behind the son of their lord, Dervorin striding on foot: three hundreds. From the uplands of Morthond, the great Blackroot Vale, tall Duinhir with his sons, Duilin and Derufin, and five hundred bowmen. From the Anfalas, the Langstrand far away, a long line of men of many sorts, hunters and herdsmen and men of little villages, scantily equipped save for the household of Golasgil their lord. From Lamedon, a few grim hillmen without a captain. Fisher-folk of the Ethir, some hundred or more spared from the ships. Hirluin the Fair of the Green Hills from Pinnath Gelin with three hundreds of gallant green-clad men. And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses; and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.'

I'd make The Knights of Dol Amroth heavy cavalry, highly reliant on lances.

Fell Beasts should be fearsome, and of course flying, but what else I'm not sure. The movies paint them as having a terribly strong dive attack, but the books, as I recall, seem to suggest their power was greater in fear, much like the Nazgul.

Personally, I think your suggestion for Aragorn is pretty close to accurate in regards to the books. I'd personally probably pop him down to 5 wounds, and 5 attacks. My thinking is that he was an amazing fighter, but he'd be challenged to take on a Cave Troll alone (he would probably win, but come out really hurt).

That's all I can think of for now.

Hey. Uruks would be for Sauron as well as Saruman.
Can't wait to see the lists. I think Orcs and Dwarves should have either bow or crossbows. You can fit the movie OR book that way. Axemen of Lossar sound good. Those were some of my first LOTR troops from Custom Cast back in the 70's!

:-D

Thanks,

John

Hey cube Blue, that was great stuff, thanks for the information.

I think most any race should have access to bows or crossbows, it just doesn't make military sense not to have them at all. Very hard to fight defensively without missile weapons.

The Uruks definitely had bows, because they shot the tar out of Boromir. And I seem to recall the mixed group of orcs with merry and pippin having them.

This is why I have refused to adapt for historicals, I fear the idea of people complaining about small oversights and such, lol.

We agree well on the nature of the general Tirith troops. I had missed the mithril on the the super elite guard, will have to check it. I essentially had medium and heavy cavalry for Gondor. I wonder if I shouldn't put in general light cavalry and troops representing the variety of militias that came to fight for gondor. I also have a scout class for gondor representing Faramirs troops and otehrs of their ilk who kept watch on the borders of mordor.

Dunlendings, wild men and some of the other minor players confuse me. I think I'm going to have to read through the RotK again.

There were things called "wainriders" that I think came from the north of Mordor, I've no idea what these really are.

I think the fell beasts will have the power to cast what is essentially a Death Howl each turn, at short range. Or possibly a spell more like invoke terror. I don't want to let them just break units willy-nilly, though this is pretty much what they seemed to do in the books. Also, I never decided if this ability was one from the ringwraiths or one from the beasts they rode.

Was the Black Breath a general ring wraith ability, or was it a special ability of the Lord of the Ringwraiths? Also, considering him - though he was unkillable by men, that didn't seem to make him undefeatable by men. He fled Aragon, and got swept away at rivendell for instance. So for game purposes, should I simply treat him as any other "killable" creature for the game, with the understanding that instead he just fled the battlefield to be repaired by Sauron?

Was Saruman making Uruks for mordor? I never really decided, I know there were two type of orcs in the tower, but I thought they were more like really weak goblins from the mountains and regular mordor orcs, not Uruks.

This is really close to getting put up in a state I won't be totally embarassed, may even go up tonight.

I'm not an expert, but here are my thoughts.

First of all, you're right about the Uruk-Hai and bows, they certainly shot old Boromir up, and not with crossbows.

page 736 (in RotK) states that the 'Guards of the Citadel before the Court of the Fountain' where mithril helms and black cloaks. No mention of whether mithril was only on the helms, but it states they were garbed in the livery of of the heirs of Elendil. My best judgement would be to treat them as if they had mithril armor. But these would seem to be the few most elite of Gondor's guard.

As far as the Uruk-Hai vs. Black Uruks of Mordor thing goes, well, that's a tough call. It's clear that Sauron had Uruks and Saruman had Uruk-Hai. But the book is quite sketchy about this, unlike the movie. I've heard several interpretations, and indeed, I have not read thoroughly into the 'History of Middle Earth' books beyond the Unfinished Tales and Silmarillion. But, a while back when this subject was really bugging me I strapped down and really dug through LotR, just the three books, and tried to pinpoint every reference to Uruks, Half-orcs, Orcs, Goblins, and Uruk-Hai. I then read the appendix mentions of these words.

I came to the conclusion that what Saruman actually created were the Uruk-Hai. These were the half-orcs or goblin-men that Aragorn refers to at Helms Deep. These are the same breed that Aragorn looks at curiously after Boromir is slain. He has never seen them before at that point. Aragorn does recognize the other orcs, some from the north, some from Mordor. He obviously knows his orcs but he's never seen Uruk-Hai. He does know what a Black Uruk of Mordor looks like, and it must be different. The fellowship runs into a Black Uruk of Mordor at Balin's Tomb under Moria. This is what the movie replaced with a cave troll for effect (the cave troll is mentioned, but doesn't do much in the book but get its foot stabbed). Every reference to Uruk-Hai pertains to the Isengarders, and at no time are they simply referred to as Uruks. On the other hand, Uruks and Black Uruks of Mordor is the term for the greater orcs that Sauron bred (far before Saruman in fact). They are two different breeds in my opinion.

The Uruk-Hai have more mannish weapons (they are described as having flat short swords and bows of yew as opposed to the traditional scimitars and curved blades of other orcs). They do not fear the sun and are obviously stronger, taller, and less cowardly than other regular orcs.

All that I can gleam about the Uruks, those from Mordor, is that they are greater race of orc. They are typically better armed and usually lead the lesser orcs of Mordor (though there is mention of an entire troop of them).

In terms of game stats, I'd make them roughly the same. But Sauron created the Uruks long ago (they originally sacked Osgiliath) and Saruman seems to have modified them or created his own.

I see no indication that the black breath was an ability that only the Witchking weilded. When Merry succumbed to the black breath, I don't think the Witchking was among the Nazgul in Bree (I can't state for sure right though).

As for the Witchking's demise. I was under the impression (from someone somewhere.. who knows if it's true) that someone long ago had prophesied that the Witchking would not fall by the hand of any man, or that he would fall by the hand of a woman. I believe it may have been Gil-Galad or Cirdan who prophesied this. The Witchking says 'no man can hinder me' to Eowyn before she reveals herself. It may mean that it is just a legend based on the prophecy. As in, since it was prophesied that the Witchking would die by the hand of a woman, then no man could kill him or the prophesy would be false. That is not to say that no man has the ability to kill him. That's the way I've always interpreted it, but I know there are many who disagree (and may have some good evidence for it too).

I just read a passage that gave me the feeling that the power of fear was partly just the presence of the Nazgul, but this seems to have been amplified by the screams of the fell beasts:

"Ever they circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men's flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air. More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry."

The Wainriders were for the most part Easterlings, or a collection of cultures from the East that banded together. The appendix (page 1024) describes them as very well armed. They were called wainriders because they travelled to war in great 'wains,' which I take to mean some sort of wagon. They were lead by chariot riders.

I think general light cav and troops to represent that majority of militia from the outlands of Gondor would be superb.