"Converting Clan Wars to AoA" Topic
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|Meiczyslaw||05 Feb 2005 6:28 p.m. PST|
We've gotten a copy of AoA recently, and the rules review by our group has been positive. We're also planning on trying the system out, and have a big pile of Clan War figs lying around. The problem is that Thane's decided that a Katana is a Str(1) First Strike weapon - which could be argued if you were playing Samurai against Graccans, but is flat-out boring if you're fighting Samurai against Samurai.
Or, in this first attempt, Lion against Scorpion. Within the Clan War environment, the Scorpion are supposed to be *fast* - meaning that they should strike before their enemies. So, for my first cut, all the clans are going to have their "first strike" ability removed, except for the Scorpion.*
First cut of expected clan abilities:
1) A Crab/Hida Bushi will not have his move reduced by armor. (Move 6, instead of 5.)
2) A Crane/Kakita are tricky - there's no dueling in AoA, but I do want to make sure they're different from everyone else. One of the options is to listen to my snooty Iaido training and make their melee skills one better than the other clans. (But then they'd be skill 4. Is this reasonable?)
3) A Dragon/Mirumoto will get the Daisho technique, meaning that he'll either get Evasion(1) or Armor+1 for it. (If I want to re-use the existing Dragon list with minimal changes, I go with Armor+1, and just remove First Strike from the Samurai.)
4) The Lion/Akodo's technique ignores their opponent's Armor. Strength+1 - so they'd be Str(2).
5) The Phoenix/Shiba are kinda freaky. Given the system, I think their Magic Resistance is increased. (Yeah, I know - it's the Rank 2 technique instead of the Rank 1.)
6) The Scorpion/Bayushi are easy. Strike First, Strike Last. (First Strike.)
7) The Unicorn/Shinjo are tied to their horses. One of the solutions would be to make cavalry elites for all other Clan War armies. It violates one of Thane's original rules, but there's nothing else that the Unicorn are really known for. (Another option is to downgrade the other clans' horses - they can have 'em, but they're not as good.)
The ones that'll definitely get tried out here are the Lion, Phoenix, and Scorpion. Does it sound like I'm on the right track? Other comments?
*I'm also of the opinion that giving a katana "first strike" over a long sword (also called "bastard" sword) is done solely because of the coolness advantage that the katana has. There is not, handling-wise, much difference between the two weapons, nor do I expect a great difference in skill between the wielders.
|aecurtis ||05 Feb 2005 7:23 p.m. PST|
Where does your group meet? This sounds like it could be worth a drive, if you don't mind visitors...
Allen (in Barstow)
|Meiczyslaw||05 Feb 2005 8:48 p.m. PST|
Barstow is what, 350 miles from San Diego?
I'm not sure we mind visitors, but the big problem is scheduling things rigidly enough to make it worth your while. (At least half of the group is currently back in school, so our scheduling is funny.)
Heh. Now I know what conventions are for. Ping me again in March, and see if I'm planning to go to Strategicon/Gamex on Memorial Day. (I should be able to get a table, there, right? Now all I need is two completely painted armies ...)
|aecurtis ||05 Feb 2005 9:10 p.m. PST|
Will do. You might contact Jose, the miniatures coordinator for the Strategicon shows; his e-mail is on the Web site. Would make a good demo, I think.
|aecurtis ||05 Feb 2005 9:15 p.m. PST|
Oh, and... 350 miles? No, more like 180-185. About two and a half hours unless traffic intervenes. Used to make the weekly early morning Monday run down to University Heights in about two and a quarter, if things hadn't backed up too far beyond the HOV lanes for the last sprint in.
|Meiczyslaw||05 Feb 2005 11:16 p.m. PST|
Hmm. You're right, I think. I checked a map just to be sure - did you know there are *two* Barstows in California?
Given that you're a little closer, I'll sing out if we have about a week lead time on scheduling.
I will get in touch with Jose after we get a few games in. There's nothing worse than giving a demo when you don't know the rules. ;)
Well, except maybe receiving one in that situation. o_O
|aecurtis ||06 Feb 2005 12:50 a.m. PST|
Great; thanks! Memorial Day may be quite soon enough, anyway. But if you would like to suggest what it might be useful to have painted by then, drop me a line at aecurtisATgteDOTnet I like Naga... and there's a list...
|Thane Morgan||06 Feb 2005 1:03 a.m. PST|
When I made the samurai list, the samurai did not get first strike because of the katana, but because of the training. I'm no expert, but everything I've seen of Japanese swordsmanship seems based on the fast attack, with not a lot on defense. I seem to recall a score of strikes techniques just from the draw of the blade. Perhaps some of that is fiction/legend/idealizing, but thats ok in the fantasy game - most of the human armies got some mythological enhancement to their abilities. The Fearlessness is part of that too.
Samurai Heros are pretty good for humans, but the shogun ismore of a leader than a fighter.
I know Clan War more from L5R, so I'm not the best judge on the correct converts. But here are some thoughts:
First of all, the errata includes some samurai teaks - morale should be 7 fearless, not 9 fearless. I like them have super high morale, but it is a diminishing reward for larger units, since most of them go by the leaders morale. Based on that, the samurai cav should only be 36 points (and the errata needs updating on that... sigh.)
Unicorn - Better horses and horsemanship. Give them 16" move (+1VP), Skill 4 (+4 VP) rider attack and Horses a skill 3, Strength 1 attack (+2.5), and you've got a superb 44 Point not quite elite cav model. Maybe give their heros an evasive horse (+6)
Pheonix - very magic oriented, so maybe give them a troop type similar to teh high elf acolytes. Or an eldritch melee attack instead of strength bases. Or a magical strength (like high elf sunblades). Definitely a magic resistance boost.
Scorpion - Maybe a "super-first strike attack" ("Lightning strike"?), say +8 points instead of +5 points (before skill), that allows them to attack before normal first strike. I would hesitate to make this a normal thing ("yeah, well I'm first strike infinity+1!"), but to match that character of that particular background, I don't have an issue with it. Give them an assassin-like infiltrating character (several different styles of assassins from other lists)
Crab - +1 armor (3), move 6". Maybe Heros get an extra wound.
Lion - +1 strength seems good, also maybe move 6".
Crane - Very tough to decide. Maybe an extra attack for their characters, or higher skill fo rthe heros. I don't think you want to buff all of the regulars to skill 4, but I could be wrong.
Dragon - I never figured out their special thing - they just seemed to be a bit better than average across the board. No suggestion from me.
I hope that helps a bit with it.
Mykel Farnham's Dragon Clan list is kind of extreme - it suited what he wanted to play, but I'm not sure it really ever got a solid theme to it. After he made it, he didn't play it in the convention game he was supposedly making it for. But that is a completely different approach, making fresh stats based entirely off the clan war faction lists.
|Meiczyslaw||06 Feb 2005 12:11 p.m. PST|
Thanks for the response, Thane.
Samurai and First Strike: I think part of my resistance to giving them First Strike as a group comes from being ranked in Iaido, and learning some of the techniques. Yes, there are (at least) two schools devoted to Iaijutsu - but the strike on the draw (nukitsuke) is for duelling and for countering ambush in "peaceful" situations. (Also, in L5R, Iaijutsu and Kenjutsu are two seperate skills - the Crane have it, most others don't.)
Further, blocking and defense are parts of the style. Where the whole "speed" issue comes in is the philosophy of Two Cuts. The first cut incapacitates, while the second is the "Cut of Compassion," intended to put your opponent out of the misery of being unable to be a samurai after the first cut. (Even so, I'd have agreed with you about the samurai first strike style about three years ago - before I saw a copy of Hans Talhoffer's manual for 15th century German knights.)
Anyway, this is not to say that I want you to remove "First Strike" from the Samurai list - it *is* flavorful in its context. I will ponder the idea of "Lightning Strike." It will, at least, be in the toolbox if I don't get the right feel between Clan War and our Warhammmer armies. (Empire, Skaven, Dogs of War.)
At any rate, this is why you include a DYO option - so we can get the right feel for our armies and maintain balance. (So thanks for the option, and thanks for the feedback.)
Errata: I found it already, thanks. I was a bit confused when my VP calculations weren't matching, and I adjusted the morale accordingly. (I also realized that I've been rounding after the calculation is finished, not at each step.)
Clan Suggestions: I do *lots* of L5R RPG, so I'm coming slightly from that direction, as well. I never got to play much Clan War - but Jishin did, so we're using her figs as a starting spot. (Unfortunately, we don't have all the Scorpion figs - they were the last army, and AEG never finished providing figs for some of the weird units. We're lucky we got any Straw Targets at all.)
At any rate, I was just talking about the basic bushi - some of the armies have some really oddball stuff built in. (Phoenix have elementals, Lions have real lions, Scorpion have ninjas, etc.) As such, I'm not looking for extreme differences between the bushi - just subtle ones. (And, yes, I'm basing the differences off of their Rank One technique.) So far, I'm happy that I'm on the right track - though the Crane are starting to bug me.
And I agree about Bayushi Aramoro - we've got the fig, so he's got to infiltrate. (Though I swear, he's got a Buster Sword, and not a katana.)
|Meiczyslaw||06 Feb 2005 12:14 p.m. PST|
Oh, and apologies for putting words in your mouth in that first post. Re-reading the thread, I realized that I didn't distinguish between what you actually said in the rules and what I was hearing.
|Soldat||06 Feb 2005 12:18 p.m. PST|
Meiczyslaw, where do you guys game? Game empire/ Gametowne? I've got orders for san diego this june/july.
|Meiczyslaw||06 Feb 2005 2:16 p.m. PST|
We usually game at my place. It gets a little tricky to run multiple battles that way, but it does mean that the Unsupervised Store Kiddie won't damage any of the models.
Looks like my turn for contact information: