"Fantasy Rules versus Armies of Arcana" Topic

I have only played Fantasy Rules! But I was interested in hearing about the benefits and drawbacks of the AoA rules since so many on these boards talk about them. I am always willing to try out another game. I especially prefer rules that do not have "official" miniatures.

Thanks for your time.

I just looked at the starter deal posted on the main page, and it seems very tempting - the rules, plus two complete armies' worth of metal miniatures and bases for $60. I like FR!, but I've heard good things about AoA, so I may have to check this out...

They are totally different games. FR! uses larger bases to represent whole units, AoA uses 1 figure = 1 model as its basis. Starting from there, all of the mechanics work differently because what they are trying to simulate is different.

You can use your FR! bases with AoA, especially if you have opponents with FR! based armies. You can use any fantasy figures, and the point system comes with the book.

I don't know how many people here will have played both besides me. I will tell you that I think FR! is the best of the multibased fantasy games, and AoA is the best of the single based :)

If you have specific questions, I'll be happy to answer them, but hopefully others will chime in with their own opinions so you don't have to take the word of the designer :)

I am painting a 15mm fantasy army, and I would like to know more about fantasy rules. I am looking for a fantasy ruleset multibase. I would like one where fantasy armies fight like real armies, but with a litlle flavour for the races, you know: where elves are a better archer than a men, etc..
I donīt like battle spells or monsters that canīt be enlisted in a army (so I like trolls, big orcs and some giant, but not dragons or hydras or werewolfs)
I would like a ruleset who allow a basing like OOTH, so I wonīt need to rebasing my armie if I change to another ruleset.

Ghostdog: FR! uses 40x40 bases for 15mm. Though you can always fudge that. For example, I've got a bunch of FR sized bases lined with metal, and I can stick on figures (even other multi-based figures, like DBM, Warhamster, etc armies) for FR.

There is a large set of "standard" troop types. Spears, knights, small monsters, large monsters, assassins, wizards, artillery, etc. Then each army only has access to those troop types that it reasonably have, within the realm of "typical" fantasy or mythology. So, for example, you won't see many Wood Elves toting around artillery. Then, within each list are assorted bonuses or special troops. Using the Wood Elf example again, they can get elite archers that are better than the "stock" archers.

Thane: So is AoA a skirmish level game? Are you rolling for each figure, like WFB and other games of that variety?

I have had the fortune to play quite a bit of both games, although I haven't experienced the most current version of AoA. Both of these games have their merit, and they are both a lot of fun, but they are two very different styles of game.

FR! is more of an army game with figures based in "elements", and play having more of a strategic/grand tactical feel. The base sizes allow you to build dioramas of your units, and you have a ton of flexibilty in what your figures represent which makes for an amazing creative palette if you are into that kind of thing (I am!).

AoA is figure based - one figure is one guy. I hate to compare it to the Evil Empire's (TM) WHFB, but it is similar in the sense that you have units formed in ranks and files with standards, etc. Because of the scale (15mm), you will find that in AoA armies look like armies and not like small warbands pretending to be armies as you do in the Evil Empire's (TM) game. The rules are very well written and there is a lot of creativity in the army and spell lists. The potential for heros to run amok simply does not exist (or at least it doesn't in the version I have).

The choice you make should depend on the style of play you prefer. If you are more comfortable with abstract representations and don't want to spend a ton of money on an army, then FR! is the way to go. If you like your figures to be more what-you-see-is-what-you-get, and you enjoy moving large units around, then AoA will suit your needs better. (I might point out that I see no reason why you couldn't play either system with 6mm figures, therefore cutting figure costs even further.)

Bottom line: These are both great games and I can recommend both very highly!

Rod Thomson
Flagship Games

I just got my copy of AoA last month and my FR!2 in the mail yesterday. I haven't played either, but had a good read of both.

Grossly, AoA is more like Warhammer Fantasy where figures are based singly and you can put them in formation or in skirmish. You roll a die for each figure shooting or attacking.

FR!2 is more akin to DBM, where each base has several figures on it and represent a body of troops. You roll one die per base and not per figure.

Comparison between WHFB and Warmaster would seem appropriate in terms of appearance.

Lists-wise both come with many army lists, so you should be able to find your favourite.

There are some things that I really like about AoA.

1. Personally, I like individual basing anymore; I've done multibased games from WRG 7th to DBx to Johnny Reb, but now that I have jumped into 25mm, I really prefer individual basing.

2. Even though AoA was generally designed for 15mm, I can still use my 25s.

3. I love the website, the player input into the game and into army lists and even the background. I like the point building system so that you can design your own armies; for a group you can actually make your own guidelines as to racial/cultural archetypes; the point system allows this.

4. It may be minor, but I really like the fact that some of the posted armies are semi-historical. I can take my WAB Greeks that I am busily painting, and add a few figures, tweak a few units, 'voila' I have an AoA Graccan army.

I am not knocking FR! since I haven't played it, I am just giving my opinion on AoA.

Mark

I have a question about AoA and basing, which might help me decide whether or not I can, ahem, 'afford' it:

Thane, according to the posts in this thread, AoA is "figure based - one figure is one guy." I noticed from the army pictures at the website, though, that most of the 15mm minis seem to be on group bases, preventing the removal of single figures. How does AoA represent single casualties while allowing for multiple-figure bases?

Pontifex, it is because I am disgustingly clever. Or possibly just imitating someone else who was disgustingly clever.

Each of those figures is singly based, but on a piece of sheet metal or 3/16" flat washer. The larger black bases are either sheet magnet from a sign shop, or strip magnet from a hobby shop, attached to artist matting or other suitably thick cardboard.

As to affording it... if you do 15's, the armies come cheap. The players you probably have to work for though. The nice thing about playing in 25's is that you can find players pretty easy.

Personally, I prefer 15's, even for tiny battles. Most people who've tried that scale seem to like it better too. Which is kind of ironic, because the industry seems to insist on making the figures bigger each year. almost no stores carry 15's, which is why I do.

But I do like the 28mm battles, because the figures and terrain typically are more spectacular.

Back to cost - you can play tiny battles with AoA, especially using the skirmish modified rules (which I do need to update). I'm going to try to get a battle report up using the figures from the starter armies this weekend or next, depending if I can get the minos painted in time. For a long time, I would play AoA on this tiny 2'x2' arched cave terrain piece, back when first putting the rules together. Those huge armies you see on the website and large battles are not typical, most battles are just 3000-6000 points that I have seen. Locally though, we are a bunch of freaks who would cheerfully snag 3 tables and do a 24000 point monstrosity every week, I think :)

That lets you pull off figures or move them about while still only having to grab the large underbase beneath to move the whole unit. You can pick up a whole unit and turn it upside down without losing any figures. It also greatly helps in storage, as only catastrophic tipping of my tool box carrier will disorganise them. This has proven so successful that nearly every 15mm player I've met now does the same, and I'm doing it with all of my 25's on 1" washers.

This is also cool for those wanting flexibility in their gaming, as you can make 40cm subbases (or whatever your multibased game requires) from sheet magnet on carboard, and transfer your metal based figures onto them to play FR or Armati or whatever.

I really don't want this to be an FR! vs. AoA thread as to which is better to play, they are really different games, so its like arguing whether Chess or Go is a better game.

Rodney - No standardbearers, ever! The new rules actually make the characters a bit more expensive because of the way skill and evasion are costed now. Most characters can inflict a maximum of 3 wounds per turn, except those really cool guys like biting Lizardmen or Giant Marshalls.

There has been a discussion on the e-mail list about having musicians with bardic magic abilities for each army, but its been on the back burner.

Glad to see you about, I still hope to do a battle report half as nice looking as that one you did at McCormicks all those years ago.

Condottieri - Each model rolls its own attacks. It is considerably faster than the Warhammer system because there are usually only two rolls instead of 3; roll to hit, roll to save. There are also no charts to cross-reference if you know your troops - each guy has x attacks at y skill, so roll x dice needing y's or less. This can be modified if the defender has evasion or is slow;evasion 1 means subtract 1 from your skill. Armor is the same - have armor 3, roll a 3 or less to resist a hit. If the attacker has strength, subtract it from the armor. If it has weakness, add one to the armor.

You can shift between RaF and skirmished formations throughout the game, with various advantages and disadvantages.

When using multibased figures, there are several options:
1) consider each base to have the stats of one figure - especially good if you and your opponent both have the same base scale. This also works for things like using those crates of Mage Knight commons - any basing standard is usuable, so long as you and your opponent are using the same one.
2) treat models on the bases as skirmished, and let everyone on a base in HtH combat fight. Basically, abolish RaF. Its fun, and very deadly.
3) make "cheater bases" of the proper dimension for the figures that are on the multibase. A local historical player has done that with his greeks, making 60mm templates to go under his 40mm bases with 4 men across them. This has worked very well with "normal" based armies.

Is AoA a skirmish game? Probably by most standards of single based and each model rolling. But from my perspective, it runs more entities smoothly than any other game I have played or seen played. That grand battle report had at least 800 figures on the table, probably more but the giants skew the numbers in my head, with each figure having some measure of self determination. And that took about 6-7 hours total. So it felt a lot more like a mass combat game than the "real" mass combat games, which typically bog down because of the opposed rolls at around 30 or 40 entities per side.

Ghost Dog - FR had several levels of magic that you pick for whether you wanted low or high fantasy.

Wow, that was so long.....

Ah, the washer-and-magnets trick. Thanks, Thane.