"Opinions needed on DBA vs WHAncients" Topic

I'm thinking about possibly trading my 28mm viking army and WHAncients books for some DBA armies. First off what would a fair trade be for a 100 piece,28mm,Gripping Beast excellently painted army be? Could I expect to get 2, 15mm well painted DBA armies for it or more. Is DBA a superior game? What is the worth of 28mm vs 15mm. Do you think there would be any interest? Thanks for any input.

CC

Oh.... this is so much a matter of personal taste. Play DBA and see if you prefer it. Look at the ranges around and see what takes your fancy. And be aware that this almost the historical equivelent of a GW post.. :)

JDE

Well, I've not played DBA but I recently asked a friend what it's like. He said it's very good, needs a lot less figures, BUT, and it's a big BUT - the rules are apparently not simple or easy to pick up and you need someone to teach you. Of course - this could just be how my friend found it but he's a very experienced wargamer who plays all sorts of systems and genres. I'd say giv eit a go using your current figures (if you can) and see which ruleset you prefer.

Alien

The 25mm castings can be remounted into a DBA army. The books are another matter. Whether you play WHA or not the Supplement guides are very good painting guides.

In order to do a good job with DBA matching troops to troop types, you really do need the DBM army guides to explain items in more detail. For example is a Pd unit bow, sling or javelin.

As JDE said , it is a matter of taste with advocates of both systems around.

If you just want to sell get rid of it all, then you should have no problem doing so at the next convention in your area.

Good Luck, -Time Portal Hobbies-

D.B.A. - Simple rules, and where I'm from it is often played with 6mm figures, albeit it is played at a number of scales including 28mm (most frequently at 15mm). You can paint a 6mm DBA army in a night and carry two onto a plane for games with your buddy.

W.A.B. - Much more complicated rules, filled with all kinds of grey areas. Most often played at 28mm. Many, many more miniatures required, that will take months to paint so as to put an army on the table, and presenting difficulties when transporting by air.

I play WAB.

DBA is a fun beer 'n pretzels game, but you really have to get someone to teach it to you. The rules themselves are unintelligible. If you try to teach yourself from the official rules, you will bitterly regret your trade within 15 minutes.

Alternately, Bob Beattie has a great online document that clarifies a lot of things.

First off, make sure you enjoy DBA before doing something like that, since the two games are very different from each other. I can't say which is the superior game, since they address different needs. Both have a claim to being simulations as well as games, but they simulate such different parts of the process of battle that they're not really comparable.

I prefer DBA because the armies are small and quick to paint, the games are fast, and I like making tactical battle decisions more than I like experimenting with different unit compositions and rolling off the "grind" of melee combat. But for a lot of people, making units and rolling lots of dice is what makes a game fun, so they would prefer WHAB.

Second off, DBA armies tend to have about 30 figures in them (12 times 2, 3, or 4 figures, depending on the army), so maybe you can use that knowledge to work out a fair exchange rate.

Third, why don't you group some of your vikings together on to stands and play a few games of DBA before swapping out the armies. You can put 4 of them on a sabot 80mm wide (you're based on 20mm bases, right?) and play at twice the 15mm dimensions. (That is, double all ranges.) If you've already done this and found DBA to your liking, then so be it. :-)

IMHO a fair comparison between the two games would be:

WHAB - large number of individually mounted figures grouped into large-ish formations, where combat is computed by-figure but movement is by unit, and command is handled through morale checks and figure groupings. Leader figures influence morale rolls and fight better than normal figures.

DBA - small number of figures affixed to standard sized bases, where combat and movement are done by stand, and command is limited by having to spend "PIPs" that you roll for each round. There is no concept of "morale" or a unit wearing down from damage, it either falls back or dies. Leader stands fight better than normal stands, and due to the way the math works out, are much harder to kill.

Oh one more thing - the DBA rule book is written in a pretty concise (or obtuse, depending on your viewpoint) way, and has some ambiguities that derive from differences in American and British english punctuation conventions, and Phil Barker's love of terse prose.

DBA is a very simple game that can be taught easily. I learned to play from the rules and reading the fanaticus.org site. Even Phil (the guy who wrote the rules) says that DBA should be easy for even an 8 year old to pick up. I guess that only applies to 8 year olds who have someone to teach them. :-)

People on the DBA lists love picking apart minutae in the written rules. Don't be turned off by that. People need some way to have fun when they're not able to play, and the way the DBA rules are written lends itself to semantic bickering.

I am glad to see that we are all in agreement here.

Why not do both - you may not need all your WHB figures for a DBA army - mount them as singles or doubles, and then make some DBA element sized movement trays for them to sit on. If you like DBA and want to get more armies, continue to use the flexible basing and you can use the new figures in WHB too.

try DBAOL. Its an online version of DBA. In fact you may find it an acceptable substitute for DBA altogether.
I'd also say you'd be better off keeping your WAB army. DBA uses smallish armies and so its easy to paint up a matched set of two for less than $50 US in 15mm. So for around $60, you can have two matched DBA armies and the rules. At rates that cheap I doubt you'd want to give up your 25 Vikings, at least until you've tried DBA and decided its the way to go.

By the way, I wouldn't have thought that 100 GB Vikings would not a 2000 point WAB army make.

can we keep this can of worms closed. geesh pandora's box this not cause this much trouble ;-)

Greyalexis, I think everyone has behaved very well. In fact everyone has actually stuck to the topic and answered several questions. I'm still not sure if there would an interest for such a trade. The problem I'm in is I no longer have time to paint due to small children and I like to swap games rather spend more cash. I really really like the paint job on my Vikings but I haven't used them in years. A couple friends play DBA and it seems to be more time effective If I could get several painted armies for what I have it might be worth it.

CC

I agree. The "Your Rules Suck" fanatics have not struck yet. Play DBA before you decide to sell/trade off your figures. You can also mount your 25's on DBA stands and play both DBA and WHAB with them.

I think you should be able to trade comparable paint jobs at about 2 or 3 to 1.

CommanderCarnage:

You might try the Fanaticus Bazaar (http://fanaticus.org/DBA/Bazaar/default.asp) to see what the market for DBA armies will bear. At the same time you could hunt around the DBA resource page for a good sense of what it's like to play the game. I also recommend DBAOL as a way to learn how to play and to get a sense about whether or not it's your cup of tea.

I'm afraid you might not be able to get the best exchange on your figures, swapping directly for DBA, as there's not much movement between those rule sets in my experience. You might try straight up selling your Vikings, then using the cash to buy figures and painting service for them.

Yes, I think could expect to get two well-painted DBA armies for your 28mm WAB army, if not more. (If you do opt for such a trade, make sure you get an attractive and creative DBA camp with each army too.)

I would echo others' comments that you give DBA a good try or three first before you start trading away your figures. I have absolutely loved DBA for nearly 15 years now, but I know it's not everyone's proverbial cup of tea. You may end up wanting to stay exclusively with WAB, or you might like BOTH --as others have suggested.

A good starting place for almost anything you would ever want to know about DBA is at Chris Brantley's "DBA Resources Page". There are so many nifty links and pretty pictures there that you might not get another thing done all day! (Grins) --The "Forum" there is a very helpful e-community.

Here's the link: http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/index.html

And, if you're anywhere near Seattle, there's an active and friendly group of us that meets every other Wednesday evening for DBA Game Nights. E-mail offlist at PAHannah@aol.com for details, or if you just have questions about DBA. :-)

//Paul in Seattle

AS far as trade values go, we sell painted DBA armies for about $100 depending on the type of army, but usually it is around $100.

We would sell a 100 fig GB Viking army for about $850.

Looking at that, you should get about 8 DBA armies for your Viking army, with comparable paint jobs.

DBA Macedonians, nicely painted 15mm Xyston Figures, US$158.00 with four days to go:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3169244336&category=2634

I haven't seen great prices for painted WAB armies. There have been some exceptions, but I just don't think people get their monies worth on ebay for painted 25/28mm armies. The best way to sell 28mm WAB is by unit...say about US$100.00 per unit. This works out better when you sell Romans then when you sell Swabians.

Good luck.

Excellent suggestions from everyone and you guys stayed on task, Incredible! Thanks

CC

As both a WAB and DBA player I will offer this advise. Try out DBA, and preferably with someone who knows the rules quite well. Get an evening of gaming in where you can get 3-4 games if not more in. Also try different armies in those games. DBA is quite elegant, but can be difficult to learn because of the writing style. Plus coming form a WAB background DBA might not be to your playing style, or as the esteemed Mr. Hannah said, “it's not everyone's proverbial cup of tea”. I agree with Pictors Studios that you should be able to get more than a matched pair of DBA armies. You may not be able to get 8 armies for your stuff, but 4-6 should be entirely reasonable. Heck I would offer up 4 armies for the Punic War for the Vikings and let you keep your WAB books for eye candy, but truthfully I might be under valuing your stuff. I think it all comes down to finding the right interested parties. So I would A) try DBA to see if you like it and B) make sure you get a decent deal for your Vikings.

Chris

I play and enjoy both game, but they are VERY different. 4-6 painted DBA armies seems about right for trade. You can learn DBA from the book and online commentataries (I did it). I find that both the DBA yahoo group and the DBA Resource Page at www.Fanaticus.org have generally helpful folks who are enthusiastic about their game, much like the WAB lists I used to be on.

As others have said, why not mount your Vikings for DBA and give it a try.

For DBA you need 12 stands for each army. Cut out cardboard counters, label them "spear", "blade", etc. and play. If the game makes sense to you, then you can rebase your figures or trade them in. It's how I got a board gamer friend into miniatures. It's cheap and if you don't like the rules at all, you're just out some cardboard.

I think Barker designs some good games but writes in the strangest kind of sentences, except if the moon is full or in eclipse, hiding behind Saturn unless Orion is ascendant...

I'm a DBA player and love it. But I second the opinion above that you play-test DBA before leaping in and buying armies.

Try the cardboard counter or - better yet - borrowed army approach. Or if you have a decent internet connection, download the demo of DBAOL. The game is not updated to the latest DBA version but gives a good idea of the mechanics.

If you find that fun, go for it. If not, think twice.

I like DBA and particularly like the relatively small army size. Many people play in 15mm and its very easy to put together armies. Personally I prefer 25mm and DBA is a great opportunity for me to build 25mm armies without breaking the bank of spending forever painting.

I only have one matched army pair as yet, but if you did get 4 - 6 DBA armies, that's alot of different potential match-ups. Happy gaming

I agree with Whatisitgood4atwork. Just download the client and play a game with a friend offline and see how you like it. Maybe you can get your friend to invest in an army or two also. :)

DBA fun for a couple of times but not enough to hold my interest.

How about swapping your WAB army for cash and buying some beer?

one further thought. If you like DBA you can always sabot-base your WAB 25mm vikings into DBA 25 vikings. A 100 figure army should turn into two 25mm viking armies in that scale. Since vikings are listed as one of their own opponents, then you've got yourself a matched set in 25.

Keep the 25mm and do like robk98 said, then if you like the rules, just pick up some Essex per-made DBA packs, some go for less than $15.00.

If you are in the Kankakee, IL region we could hook up and I can teach you the game. I have mainly done DBM over the years but I could show you DBA 2.0 as I have it as well and I can supply the armies, just a thought.

I'm in Omaha and I haven't found too many players. Thanks for the great suggestions. I'm definately going to give DBAOL a try. If I decide to trade I'll post it on TMP.

CC

I only rarely play DBA, but enjoy it. I also am starting on WAB. Contrary to popular belief, it is going to take me only two weeks (working in the evenings) to paint up a 1200 point Gaul Army. I think that the Romans may take a little longer, but not much. I also hand paint all shields... no transfers. So, if you were going to try WAB, go ahead and do not think it would take long to paint up.

DBA-simple rules written in complicated English. Great game, especially when using the campaign rules.

"Contrary to popular belief, it is going to take me only two weeks (working in the evenings) to paint up a 1200 point Gaul Army."

Gauls are 5 points each. So twelve hundred points of Gaul foot is 240 figures. I imagine you are using at least one unit of Noble cavalry, and have a few characters.

What are you talking...call it 175 miniatures? And I assume you mean 28mm miniatures?

Two weeks at night...say 40 hours or 2400 minutes.

So that's 13.7 minutes a miniature, and that's assuming they are all cleaned and primed, and that you are talking strictly about painting and not basing.

I don't know about popular belief. I've painted a lot of 28mm ancient miniatures in the past couple of years. All in I'm looking at something closer to an hour or more a miniature, or a unit a week, painting nights.