"New game ....DBAers vs WHABers! ...LET THE BLOOD FLOW" Topic

Inari:

You misunderstand my goal. I really have no interest in prozelityzing a given set of rules. GW's marketing department and distribution network can do that far better than I could, and they really don't need my help.

My goal is to stop the DBx players from acting like pigs. I am doing this by mirror-imaging their own offensive behavior. Game bashing isn't nearly as much fun when it's your favorite game getting bashed.

I don't want the DBx players to start playing WAB. This is a futile goal, since many of them have made it perfectly clear that they will not play any set of rules but DBx. My goal is to get them to shut their yaps, and stop spouting off about games that they have not, and refuse, to play.

I do not intend to be nice or pleasant when faced with anti-social behavior. I have no intention of explaining WAB's mechanics to someone who really does not want to listen.

Instead, they receive a rude response to their rude comments.

Rudy:

O.K. Here are the facts. Within this thread:

Exhibit A:
Polish Lancer starts off by saying WAB's lists for Romans "basically suck." This is an intelligent and helpful comment.

Exhibit B:
Rudy Nelson starts off with his so called statistical analysis, later claiming that he was not trying to be offensive.

Exhibit C:
In the very next post, VTSAOgames, admitting that he has only played WAB once, decries it as being old fashioned.

Exhibit D:
IvanDBA describes WAB as a "pathetic throwback to the 60's," and that it is "really sad." MBSparta expresses his offense at these remarks, only to meet with a smart ass remark.

Exhibit E:
Rankbajin pretty much states that WAB is for kids and implies that adults should not be playing it.

Exhibit F:
Inari's personal attack on me for criticizing DBx.

All of this is in one thread. All of this pretty well describes the constant barrage of crap that WAB players face from the DBx community.

It wouldn't be so bad if DBx were a decent game; but it is a turd.

Rudy:

Also, I have seen life from the dealer's room. It is a very skewed view of the gaming community.

I, for one, am not interested in tournament play, and most of my friends view tournament gaming as something of an anathema. Most of them do not participate in conventions or tournaments.

In our local club, we have a group of DBx players who have pretty well run off any the WAB players by the type of conduct detailed in my previous post. Who wants to go to a club where one is not welcome?

Most of us are gaming in our own homes. I have a clubhouse in back where I can set up my 12 game table with over 10,000 miniatures. Most of my friends have large gaming tables in our basements. We game regularly. And yes, the DBx players are not invited.

Zarquon

You stated "My goal is to stop the DBx players from acting like pigs. I am doing this by mirror-imaging their own offensive behavior"

Mirroring the behavior of offensive people makes you offensive.

I only attacked you to make a point about name calling, and putting down other game systems. I felt you were being too offensive to the DBx gamers on this thread.

It is true they called WAB a throwback and it’s for kids, but you could have countered with something more intelligent then name calling.

I also think it’s a mistake to group all DBx’ers together and not invite them to your games. Not all DBX gamers are the same. I for example like to play WFB, 40K. Stargrunt II, full thrust, Silent Death, and almost all the Clicky games. So you never know where your next WAB player may come from. Judge one person at a time, don’t lump all the players of a game together.

Zarquon,

That was a much better explanation of your position in both posts. More of what I expected from someone who has posted good arguments in the past. The tur* comment was a disppointment when it appeared.

'sword and spear' shits on both

Maybe it's unfair to lump DBx players together, but the majority I have encountered are flaming assholes. The posts on this thread, as detailed above, provide compelling proof of this.

Unfortunately, this boorish behavior is not limited to this thread, or even to the Miniatures Page. In our local club, we have a group of about four DBx players. Over the past couple of years, I have brought approximately a half dozen prospective new members to the club, only to have them turned off by this type of behavior.

I understand that mirror imaging bad behaviors makes me offensive. However, rational arguments do not work with flaming assholes. (I work with flaming assholes everyday and know its a complete waste of time to reason with them.) Letting them know that they will be met with equally offensive behavior does work.

I don't know why the DBx crowd gets so upset when somebody says they don't like the game (or in my language, it is a turd.) Why should they care? Why should they care if someone chooses to play WAB, Armati, Vis Bellica or Medieval Warfare instead of DBx? I have seen the same venom directed to other rules as well, but WAB seems to be the main target of the DBx crowd's bile.

Zarquon, you seem to have a very distorted view... practically all of the "bile" I have seen on this subject comes from you! Most of your examples are invalid - e.g. Rankbajin made critical comments about both rules systems, not just WAB; RudyNelson reported facts (not impressions) from his own experience - which you chose to interpret as "offensive". No, chum, you're the offensive one, and crudely vulgar at that. You're not "mirroring"; you're responding to imaginary attacks.

To paraphrase your last message - why do you care so much that people choose to play DBx? Why do you generalise so recklessly about DBx players? How about showing the tolerance you claim for yourself and your chosen rules system?

Zarquon: "Letting them know that they will be met with equally offensive behavior does work."

No, it really doesn't. It just escalates things and makes the other person feel justified in treating you the way they did.

This thread is a prime example. Some comments were made and you responded by comparing a game with fecal matter-- did they all go away? Did they all say "Wow, I better stop or Zarquon will make more turd comments!"? No, that's not what happened at all. Now you look like the jerk, not them (because you escalated things).

King Solomon knew what he was talking about: "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."

Well, my plea for peace was not taken into account.

"King Solomon knew what he was talking about: "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."

Very true Nathaniel. I do not condone the use of foul language or name calling as that tends to lessen credibility in the eyes of a number of people. I have to say, however, that a number of shots were aimed at WAB and / or WAB players. Here's the first shot.

"Have the WAB books for Romans and the list basically suck! Very disappointing."

OK, Polish Lancer, how am I to believe you when you are not telling us what is wrong with the list? I'd appreciate it if you could tell us.

IvanDBA points out something else:

"But WAB is really sad. I truly believe it is only popular because of the high production value of the rule books. Its pathetic really, so many gamers decide on a set of rules not on the rule's merits, but because it has a lot of glossy pics."

Ivan gave us his opinion, and then proceeds to bash people who play WAB because they like the appearance of the rulebook rather than the game itself.

Ivan again takes another shot:
"And as a final cheapshot, note that in WAB being mounted on a horse makes a person LESS vulnerable to missile fire, not more"

Ivan's point is made, but adds another putdown to those who like WAB.

Have there been criticism levelled at DBA in this thread? Yes, but not with the same frequency as that of WAB.

Does that mean that one system is better than the other? No. They are trying to accomplish the same thing from 2 different perspectives.

Zarquon has been the main defender of WAB along with mbsparta and a few others.

WAB has its weaknesses, DBA has its weaknesses, live with it guys.

Yes, I have played both systems, yes there are good and not so good points about each system. There is no need to insult people for their preference. That is not constructive to the hobby.

Marc

Zarquon*[You sound like the little kid who cried "it all started when he hit me back!" This thread, was basically one where the DBx crowd continued their same tired old tripe]....Wrongo, this thread was started (by me) To poke fun at the childish finger pointing and bickering that inevitably flows like bullshit from a Cows backside whenever this subject is broached.

Zarquon; BOTH sides (DBX/WHAB) seem equally guilty of childish behavior but starting with the turd comment, you are todays poster child for excess.

Clearly NONE of you guys "GOT" it, I was hoping for a more light hearted tone, maybe even a little good natured kidding. I should have known better after all we ARE CURING CANCER...RIGHT...or was it WORLD HUNGER!?

Geez take it easy guys, at the end of the day we are on the same team after all.

Bill AKA "can't we all just get along" yettie..."Otis"

The most recent post by the instigator of this discussion brings to mind a famous quote by Albert Einstein: "Insanity is endlessly repeating the same process and hoping for a different result."

"If DBA is so bad then why is it the most popular 15mm game?"

That poll was done in 1999 which IIRC WAB was released in 97 or 98.

Hmmm, one way to settle this might be for a poll.

How about it, Bill? This might put to rest some issues here.

Marc (I am not a DBA / WAB sockpuppet) Canu

I would like to see John Graham Leigh condem Ivans comments (which are so stupid and insulting and are what really started this whole thing down this path) with the same passion he goes after Zarquon. I do not defeand Zarquon ... He speaks for himself. But to be fair ... and to discredit Zarquons assumptions I would have liked to see you step in and address Ivan's comments as well as Zarquon's.

And for Yettie ... I think you are responsible for this in the first place. Unless you are brain dead ... you should have seen this happeneing before you ever started this. So don't throw stones at Zarquon ... you are part of this ... Just like I am. As for me ... I am too stupid to just avoid this. But these things get out of hand. I am as guilty as the rest of you.

We should try to encourage each game system. I don't care what game you play. Is my game better? ... sure ... duhhh ... I wouldn't play it if it wasn't. But what is 'better' for me need not be better for you. What is better for you is up to you.

I appologize to the list for even getting involved in this.

Mike B

Hi Mike. Ivan's initial posting was rather silly, I agree - the use of words such as "pathetic" was foolish and inflammatory. But he did elaborate in a later post, with a reasoned critique of WAB. Zarquon plumbed new depths with his vulgar first posting and that was my flashpoint for getting involved.

As you know, I'm a DBM player myself (not DBA, which I haven' played for ten years or so) but I try to appreciate other rules sets and encourage their devotees. Just today, for instance, I paid £15.00 for Armati 2 so I can see what all the Armati players are so excited about. Diversity is good for the hobby. In case you haven't seen my editorial in the current Slingshot, here's a paragraph from it:

"These are exciting times for ancient and medieval wargamers, with the publication of the long-awaited Armati 2 rules and the news that Phil Barker is working on De Bellis Magistrorum Militum (DBMM), a development of the established DBM set. Another DBM derivative is Hoplon, reviewed in this issue. The feature on the Battle of Barnet again highlights how different rules sets approach battlefield problems – Vis Bellica shows to advantage here, and the entertaining Piquet account will, I hope, provoke interest in that innovative rules set. At the same time, Scott Robertson’s scholarly article on Gabiene shows how Warhammer Ancient Battles can be used to recreate ancient battles. It all goes to show that there is plenty of diversity about, as demonstrated at the Society Battle Day, featuring multiple refights of Gaugamela. Full reports of this event will be featured in a future issue."

I hope that helps to show where I stand... I just don't like rude oiks such as Zarquon, or fanatics generally.

Way to go Yettie!

I guess I owe you lunch - you got the most replies to a posting - over 60 not counting mine! Our new record! Of course, calling a up a DAB vs. WAB thread might be construed as cheating!

~mArK

PS: I am done with your army books and they went out with today's mail.

"I hope that helps to show where I stand... I just don't like rude oiks such as Zarquon, or fanatics generally."

John,

The recent Slingshot articles on a variety of ancients rulesets to great speaks well to your efforts to increase diversity of opinion within the SOA. On the other hand, the ability to be even-handed in distributing criticism and blame in online discussions like this one is also an indication of 'where one stands.' I have been hanging around this list, ancmed, and other online fora for several years now, and while I have seen you frequently condemn "Zarquon" and other DBx critics for instances of online rudeness and bad behavior, I have never, ever seen you even mildly rebuke a DBx supporter for similarly rude or offensive behavior (and there is plenty of it) toward the followers of other rulesets.

This discussion thread is a classic case in point. The comments of "Ivan DBA" and others were clearly meant to be inflammatory, and yet you waited until the inevitable response by "Zarquon" to get involved. In fact, you even attempted to excuse "Ivan's" derisive comments, which clearly sserved as the stimulus to the slanging match in this particular thread. So, while it is admittedly much more difficult to rebuke folks with whom you agree than those with whom you disagree, making at least some show of attempting to do so would give even greater credence to your implied claim to fairness and balance.

Just a thought.

Best wishes,
Scott K.

Hi Scott. Zarquon's the only one I've had a go at, I think (and only on TMP, not ancmed, so far as I recall). I joined TMP less than a year ago and have been only an occasional reader and contributor.

I take your point, but Zarquon has been far more abusive than anyone else on this thread and on similar ones. I'm certainly not excusing Ivan's use of inflammatory terms like "pathetic" and "sad" but he did provide a reasonable rationale - after doing the initial damage, of course. Anyway, a plague on both their houses - I've not criticised any rules sets (other than by way of review in Slingshot) and don't intend to do so.

Regards

John

I am a Warhammer Ancients player. And a WECW player. But I just bought some figures to start a DBR army. I am so weak.

Weak Mike B

I have a WAB EIR army and a DBA EIR army....

I'm so ashamed. ;)

I still would like to see a poll on this one guys, how about it?

Marc

I second the motion for a poll! How is one created?

Markind are you referring to threads on only the Ancient page?

Currently there are several questions listed on the Current Events page and several other pages with over 80 posts each.

mbsparta*[And for Yettie ... I think you are responsible for this in the first place. Unless you are brain dead ... you should have seen this happeneing before you ever started this. So don't throw stones at Zarquon]...Blah Blah Blah...you're right it's my fault that no one has a sense of humor, it's my fault that Zarquon and others were unable to articulate their thoughts without childish name calling...OH and not finding the WMD that's me too...

ancientgamer2003*[The most recent post by the instigator of this discussion brings to mind a famous quote by Albert Einstein: "Insanity is endlessly repeating the same process and hoping for a different result."]...I must confess to a slip of mental health on this one, hoping for a little more light and a little less smoke, but I am ever the optimist.

Bill AKA yettie..."Otis"

Gentlemen! Gentlemen! (hey Mike!)

These are _games_ we are arguing about here. Not _simulations_ and certainly nothing so important as anything that is happening in the real world!

... just games

(and for the record, I play DBA, WAB, and occasionlly DBM)

Fred

rankbajin*[It's a pity that the basing for DBM/DBA and WAB doesn't allow people to play both sets of rules interchangably. Or you could just think of it as an excuse to buy a new army :)]...Good point, got me thinking, would the gulf between the two camps be less if there was a common basing system? Of course the scale difference would still come into play (15mm vs 30ish)

Bill AKA yettie..."Otis"

WAB can be played very easily using DBM basing. In fact most of my opponents use DBM 'universal' basing so they can play a variety of games. If you don't like WAB then fine ... just don't insult players that do. And vice versa.

I use DBM army lists as a resource for modeling my WAB armies. I use the DBR ECW booklet over and over for the same reason. One of my favorite WAB opponents at the HMGS tournaments has his armies based for DBM. In fact they are some of the best painting I have ever seen.

I enjoy reading about DBM games, tournaments and scenarios in Slingshot.

DBM Macedonian players are missing out if they don't get a copy of the WAB "Alexander the Great" supplement.

There are tons of anicent miniatures being produced right now. And new models being added regularly. Ancient wargaming is booming. There is strength in numbers. The more rules being played, the more players we have. This gets us more toys to choose from. We all gain from variety and numbers.

Mike B

Mr. Leigh,

How can I buy the latest issue of Slingshot?

I am an unrepentant "CHAINMAIL" player, still using my 2nd ed. from 1971.

SO....what's so great about Armati, seriously? How do you like them?

In short, "is there any reason to change from a rules set that I know that gives results amenable with what I understand of medieval warfare"? (BA in Medieval History)

Gronan

PS YA BOO SUCKS to all humor-impaired people everywhere!

Hi Gronan. For Slingshot, see www.soa.org.uk - there's a link from the TMP Slingshot news item (11 May). If you join the Society of Ancients, which costs £20/$30, you get the year's 6 issues; if you join now you'll receive the first three issues together and then the July, September and November issues as they come out.

I don't know Chainmail rules; in 1971 I was just transferring from Tony Bath's rules to WRG. Armati is a clean, uncomplicated rules set without much chrome, concentrating on combat rather than manoeuvre. It gives a pretty good simulation. No reason at all for you to change if you're happy with your current rules and have adequate opposition. Using a more widely-played set would let you meet lots of new opponents, if that matters to you.

Regards

John

All right guys and gals, now how do we go about convinvcing our beloved editor to put up a poll regarding who plays what ancients rules systems?

I am curious now that there are even more sets out there.

What do you think?

As some Saturday Night Live character once said,

"Talk amongst yourselves."

Marc

Ok, you non-DBA crew, here is something to chew on:

I finally got around to using DBA On-Line. I found it a truly excellent tool for learning the basics of movement, recoil, pursue, ZOC, ect. Its free to use in solitare mode.

Hats off to the writers on that one, its a good effort to provide a picture/visual for each unit and large list of army lists to choose from, as well as coding in the basic game mechanics and requiring very little CPU power. My ancient celeron laptop runs it just fine. Very attractive graphics and excellent maps!

So there nyaa! Show me a PC version of whatever else that lets you hone your skills at the minis! I would love to learn Armati, Warrior, and maybe a couple others with the help of the PC.

~mArK

"""Show me a PC version of whatever else that lets you hone your skills at the minis! I would love to learn Armati, Warrior, and maybe a couple others with the help of the PC."""

First of all, I am a DBA player, so don't take this as an attack on the game. It's just me being honest:

The other games you listed don't require a online game to learn the game because the have something DBA does not: CLARITY!

I learned DBA from playing at demos in a game store. I pretty much had a handle on the game. Then I got a copy of the rules and everything went haywire. I began to question how everything should be done because the rules are so very poorly written. DBA, as a retail product, has NO value to me. In fact, it worsened my enjoyment of the game.

Well, this post did one thing for me. Makes me want to get out my romans and parthians and have a game!

BTW Bill must not be looking at this, or is it okay to use the T and the S words? LOL!

Markind...
Feelfree to send me a challenge at DBA online,
i use the same nickname there.

John

DBA online is based on version 1.1 of the rules and army lists.

Marc

I think WAB is GW's try at reaching out to us historical gamers. Too bad for them, they are the our enemy. Give up GW!

I do like both DBA and WHAB but...

Nathaniel*[The other games you listed don't require a online game to learn the game because the have something DBA does not: CLARITY!]...This is right on the money, for Rules that take only about 4 pages, they would be more comprehesable if they had been written in High Elf.

Geez I bet you could write instructions to build an Atomic bomb that took only 4 pages AND was easier to understand.

There is an idea for a Warhammer spell, ' "Chant of Barkerese" drives insane all Wizards in area of effect, all other troops stagger around dazed and confused, unless they make saving throw'

Bill AKA yettie..."Otis"

Marc,

It brought me back to historicals.Previously,I got tired of needing to be an accountant & lawyer to interpret historical rules.

Maybe we should discuss this at the WAB tournament at ATC this Fall.

"Geez I bet you could write instructions to build an Atomic bomb that took only 4 pages AND was easier to understand."

Hmm maybe because it is not written in Barkerese?

' "Chant of Barkerese"

LOL on that one, but I think it has a different efect on other folks... like maybe going into another rules set.

CapnJak:

I figure you were not writing this to me, but I understand what you are saying. Advanced Squad Leader is about the most detailed rules out there. I find that this can and does turn people off to the hobby. Intro level games with easy to grasp rules / concepts would go a long way...

Marc

Yettie*[if they had been written in High Elf]...Or maybe by a High Elf...LOL I kill myself

yettie