"I dont like WAB, Long live DBA" Topic

IVan DBA's recent heresy has prompted me to re evaluate my pririties. I'm tired of glossy, well presented, rule books and suplemenst written in clear English. I'm tired of how unrealistic it is in WAB that a phalanx is represented by 24-32 figs when as everyone knows Alexander's phalnxes only had 4 men in them.

I want a rule book written in convulated pseudo-legalese, in size 7 courier font, so it hurts my eyes to read it.

I want a game where the skirmishers and cavalry are the kings and where the greatest army is the medieval portugese.

Before I get flamed to death. I am only kidding I do like WAB he he

LOL

JT

Please, I hope you are just getting started. Lets have more!

You were saying... ;-)

As we all know WAB is too prone to dice rolling as they roll tons more dice than in DBM/DBA and those stupid mathematicians who claim that more rolls mean that results are statistically more even, obviously don't know what they are talking about.

Join me in my campaign for a flat earth!

You realize that instead of getting flamed by WAB players, you'll just get flamed by DBA players?

DBA is an amusing little game for a quick battle, but don't let anyone tell you it represents anything historical. WAB may not either, but I haven't played it, so can't say.

I have played WH:FB (or as I call it WH:FloB - Warhammer: Fantasy lack of Battle) from which WAB is based, and it will certainly have a more visceral feel to it. With the removal of the all powerful Heroes (I hope - I don't think anyone wants to see Alexander personally kill the entire Phonecian army while his men cheer him on) and Magic, it might not be a bad combat system.

Good god, this is an old topic. I think flamers on any WAB vs DBx comparisons, or on GW's business practices, or on whether there is actually "scale creep" in sculpting, should be banned from posting.

I mean, do any of you think ANY of this is the least bit clever or interesting? Or, are you still telling knock-knock jokes at the watercooler?

Or flamed by people who are just sick of the whole discussion.

Actually I enjoy DBA very much and don't really think it represents much in the way historical battles work very often. For instance the Mongols would have a tough time against anyone in DBA. What I do like is that it has gotten me very interested in historical wargaming. It a fun game and taken with the right attitude, it's a blast. I think it has more to do with dice rolls than strategy but strategy does help. As far as WAB or WFB, I have never had any luck with that system and I just don't like the feel of it. Some of my friends really enjoy it and it's their perogative to play it.
Another thing I like about DBA, is it's easy to make up a theme for a tourney and people don't have to spend a couple hundred bucks to field an army. Or depending on the theme, someone may have enough armies to supply several extra so more people can play.
Matt

"For instance the Mongols would have a tough time against anyone in DBA."

Wouldn't that be a huge reason to condemn a set of ancients/medieval rules?

He already concedes it does not represent historical battles. It is also clear that he has a lot of fun playing the game, so why should he have to stop playing the game or condemn the rules of a game he enjoys? He knows he's not "simulating" anything; he's having a "blast" playing a "fun game."

Every set of rules is different and favors different armies.

In DBA Mongols are high speed pests, in Armati they are one of the toughest armies going.

In DBA the 100 Years War French give the English a tough time indeed and in Armati the English are awesome.

As for WAB, I played one time and it struck me as an old-fashioned game with all those saving throws and such. Not to say folks can't have fun with it. I had lots of fun with old-fashioned games back when I was young.

And while DBA armies do look like skirmishers next to forces that outnumber them by 500% or more, what other game can you finish in 30-45 minutes most of the time that involves some level of skill? OK, Ritter by Hamster Games but who ever heard of them?

Anyway, DBA vs. WAB is like comparing comic books to glossy magazines. They're intended for different audiences to start with.

Last year I finished painting 300+ 15mm Austrians. It struck me that I could have done 6 or 7 DBA armies in the same time. But I love my Hapsburg minions.

LOL.

Ummm...

My thread that inspired this was made on April 1st....

"Ummm... My thread that inspired this was made on April 1st...."

Then I guess the real joke is on anyone who starts up this old flame fest yet again... on any day.... for any reason.

Aristotle wrote: "When you joke, you reveal."

"Food fight!!!!!!"

I remember there was a pretty fun Food Fight game in The Dragon 25 years ago. It really would make for a great miniatures game these days, I think.

Saving throw for being on a horse.

Thats all I have to say.

Sigh...

Ah, but we can understand the concept and the reasoning behind the saving throw for being on a horse. Can humanity ever grasp font size 7 post modernistic nihilistic legalese that has driven men mad?
Are we not men who laugh when the PIP die is a 6?
Are we not men who hang our heads when the pip die is a 1?
Do we not laugh when our Psiloi seizes the enemy's camp?
Do we not cry when our blades are killed by Dumbo even though he is surrounded?

Ah yes, they say Phil Barker is more than a man. They say he spits out blade elements every time he coughs.

They can make fun of WAB, they can criticize WAB but on this day, let it be known and heard by all in TMP land.
They cannot take away the fun in WAB!

(By the by, I do play both, but I began to enjoy DBA again, once I had found a really good cheat sheet).

Marc Canu

(Yeah, I signed my name so i won't hear complaints about how I hide behind the handle.)

Oh yeah,,

EIR all the way in WAB and DBA!!!!!!!!

Ah, but we can understand the concept and the reasoning behind the saving throw for being on a horse. Can humanity ever grasp font size 7 post modernistic nihilistic legalese that has driven men mad?
Are we not men who laugh when the PIP die is a 6?
Are we not men who hang our heads when the pip die is a 1?
Do we not laugh when our Psiloi seizes the enemy's camp?
Do we not cry when our blades are killed by Dumbo even though he is surrounded?

Ah yes, they say Phil Barker is more than a man. They say he spits out blade elements every time he coughs.

They can make fun of WAB, they can criticize WAB but on this day, let it be known and heard by all in TMP land.
They cannot take away the fun in WAB!

(By the by, I do play both, but I began to enjoy DBA again, once I had found a really good cheat sheet).

Marc Canu

(Yeah, I signed my name so i won't hear complaints about how I hide behind the handle.)

Oh yeah,,

EIR all the way in WAB and DBA!!!!!!!!

It will not matter if we were good men or bad.
All that will matter is that two posts stood against many.

Crom! I have never prayed to your before, I have not the tongue for it. Grant me one request! Grant me victory over these WABers. And if you do not, then TO HELL WITH YOU!

Ivan, are you thinking of changing you name to Conan by any chance?

Glad you have enough money to keep paying for High-priced glossy supplements to the WAB rules.

I have taken out a second mortgage to cover it because they are, as you say that expensive.

I repeat that this thread was meant to be a spoof of IvanDBA's post. I guess that it was to much to hope for that we would not have another boring DBA v WAB argument.

I wonder what wargamers are so sensitive when it comes to this subejct anyway. At the back of the WAB rulebook, the authors acknowldege the contribution made by WRG to Ancients wargaming.

Privateer:

There are others ... if we were to gather together the only thing Ivan's elements could say is..........................................

NIH!

Ivan: Join us! (Think Evil Dead)

Rudy: AH there is the downside of WAB, it is more expensive. The books though are relatively well done.

"Saving throw for being on a horse."

Of course DBx doesn't have this problem since there are no casualties. Real men don't die in battle.

They don't run away, either, which is why DBx doesn't have any morale rules.

Of course, DBx doesn't cost as much either - you get what you pay for.

/Pokes head in door/

/pulls pin/

Everyone knows Armati is the only decent ancients game

/runs like hell/

Armati has its supporters but is very regional. At a convention in the past few years, The Florida group tried to have a tourney but had to join the DBA tourney because they had so few players.

WAB is also regional in the USA. I have seen DBA tourneys at virtually very show in the past 3 years and DBM at a majority. Rarely do I even see a WAB event being played. In a game (not event) ratio, I would say 22 DBA games and 10 DBM games per every WAB game , that I have seen played. I do keep records so I know what to stock for future shows.

The advantage of the WAB supplements is they cover the army lists, a bit of history and some guide to painting models. So as well as a gaming guide you get an interesting read as well.

In the UK the price does not seem high - remember that exchange rates are hitting UK imports into the US, hard.

"Of course DBx doesn't have this problem since there are no casualties. Real men don't die in battle."

It is factored in to the combat results.

"They don't run away, either, which is why DBx doesn't have any morale rules."

Factored in to combat, plus armies break when they have sustained a certain level of losses.

"Of course, DBx doesn't cost as much either - you get what you pay for."

Yes, a game which can play army level engagements to a conclusion in less than an hour necessarily cannot include individual casualty recording and a 48 step 'morale calculation' process. This degree of abstraction is not to everyones taste of course.

Martin

I think they are both fun; DBA as a game that can be played quickly to a conclusion, with an emphasis on generalship; WAB more toy-soldiery, visually impressive; excellent production values in the supplements.

I'm not much moved by DBM; I've watched a lot of games over the years, and it rarely looks like the fun quotient is high enough for me.

I personally prefer the DBA rules to WAB, but love the look of the massed WAB armies (and like the way troops are formed in units), and am searching for another set of rules somewhere between the two.

"I have seen DBA tourneys at virtually very show in the past 3 years and DBM at a majority. Rarely do I even see a WAB event being played. In a game (not event) ratio, I would say 22 DBA games and 10 DBM games per every WAB game."

Duh! DBA and DBM are tournament games. WAB really is not (despite attempts to have the occasional WAB tournament.) But the whole point of DBA was to create a set of tournament rules.

But I would agree that for gamers who want a "historical" set of rules to fight New Kingdom Egyptians vs. HYW English, in a white knuckled, tight assed game, DBx would be the rules of choice. It's the perfect set of rules for those who think having a root canal is fun.

Someone who really is not interested in tournament play with ahistorical match ups, and who simply want a fast and fun game with friends would be better served by WAB.

My problem with DBA is that it is so generic. There really is not that much to differentiate one army from another. My Early Imperial Blades vs. his Viking blades - boring. Why bother with figures at all. Just have a collection of blades, etc.

Or simply play chess.

"My problem with DBA is that it is so generic.... ...Why bother with figures at all. Just have a collection of blades, etc."

This is true of all wargames, why bother with figures, just use cardboard counters instead. Personally I prefer the look of figures. I can understand why the limited number of troop classifications in DBA is unappealing though.

Martin

ZArquon, I am not counting only tournamnet games in my record. These are total games. Several places have not started DBA tourneys (such as Hattisburg MS), just games.

At the Augusta Ga show they have been only doing tourneys for two years. At the Tampa shows DBA tourneys have only been going strong for 2 or 3 years.

DBM in Georgia is also a recent change and many of those players were WAB.

Based on my records the two actually do not compete but handle different styles of warfare. In the USA South-Southwest, DBA-DBM is many an upper level combat, unit mounting representation and 15mm in scale. WAB is more of a single mounted casting and low (almost skirmish) tactical level and 25mm in scale.

So stocking is needed for both which means that they really complement rather than rival each other.

Time Portal Hobbies

WAB's testamonial is that players will gather to play it in tournament's even though it is not "locked down" tournament rules set.
Players gather to play, have fun, show off their new armies to like minded friends. Players make due that it is not perfect, or not even balanced..shudder! They play for the joy of playing. Ok some will fail to grasp this concept and will attempt to squeeze every drop of octane out of an army list or argue a rule to infinitum, but these folks are common to any gaming environment, and soon get weeded out of the WAB world.. because they soon come to understand that winning means nothing..no invite the televised ESPN WAB tournament with commentary by Adrian Goldsworthy and Jervis Johnson...."Oh my he's commited the Cataphracts.. seems like a rather bold move! But first here's a tely ad for Gripping Beast our sponsor."

Nobody cares who wins.. nobody keeps track.. sometimes we keep track of overall army wins just to make sure that the Medieval Portugues are not winning all the time. WAB players know who the good players are, the good painters, the good opponents... we don't need any publications or organizations to list our accomplishements, no need for a 'world champion of dice throwing", no pecking order.. we don't even care if there are a hundred thousand of other DBx'ers/Armati'ers/WRG'ers out there... we are focused on our own corner of fun and too busy oogling the brilliantly presented miniatures on the table next to ours.

The best WAB tournaments are the ones where the organizers have split up the divisions so that relatively historical matches can be created. This not only makes the games look better, but the rules work better in period, and players tend to have more fun since they are not as often subjected to wild and crazy new rules from the myriads of glossy supplements that some take umbrage over. Clearly WHW has tried to make each glossy book an addition to the main rules set, so anybody that wishes to play a campaign or scenario in period needs only one book in addition to the rules.

There is nothing wrong with being competitive, and I play to win.. but whether I win all my games at a convention or none. I manage to have fun.
JeffJ

I agree with everything Jeff says.

I really think that WAB appeals more to the modellers than to the hard core competative types. At every WAB tournament I have seen, the gamers seem more interested in the figures and painting. The most common questions appear to be, "What figures did you use?" and "How did you paint that?" As a result, the armies of WAB players generally are much nicer than for gamers using other rules.

Winning does not seem to be a particularly big issue. After all, if one plays enough games, one expects to win or lose in about equal proportions. There are a few "masters," but I personally play with so many armies (and never the same army twice in a row), that I never get to be good with any of them. And I would not do it any differently.

Perhaps this is the best attitude to have towards WAB. There are so many ambiguities, that it is a rules lawyer's nightmare. (Besides the notion of rolling dice to resolve a rules argument is entirely foreign to rules lawyers). There is no legalistic language attempting to clarify issues. There really are not extensive eratta or commentaries. At every tournament I have attended, rules disputes are resolved by a designated (or undesignated) unbiased third party, or by a roll of the dice.

And since we recognize that we are just playing a game, historical anomolies are just written off as having a Warhammer moment. But, for the most part, the results are plausible.

Play balance issues can be resolved by adjusting the points. But among my friends, we use the knife and cake approach: the guy setting up the scenario gets last choice as to what side he plays on. (I usually play games with three gamers per side.)

It's just a difference in attitude and approach.

But then, most of the games I play are either at my home or the home of a friend (and we all tend to have large gaming areas and massive numbers of troops.)

I love DBA, but in truth since I've never played WAB I might love that system too.

But you can never be too far from the truth when you say that 1)...the neo-English dialect used in DBX (what we DBXers fondly, or often not so fondly, refer too as "Barkerees" ) is a major pain in the ass, and 2)...GW gives you a nice product for the money.

My one real criticism of DBX is that it just covers too much history.

Going from the Bronze age chariots of pre-history, to the Steel clad Knights and long bows of Agincourt seems to me to be a a reach for any rules set.

Yettie

Yettie,

Kudos to you for coming up with those DBA cheatsheets. I really appreciate them as it cuts throughthe Barkerese and spells it out in plain English.

Marc

Rudy,

Keeping track of what people are playing in order to decide on what to stock sounds like a wise decision. But I'm not sure that number of games at con's is the best indicator. From what I see, heavy tournament minded people are not into buying truckloads of lead.They usually have their "weapon of choice" and stick to it.
At the same time I see non-tournament or tournament-light players buying more figures, either for the figures themselves or for the experience of using a new army.

But this is just a gutt-feeling.

Peter

Peter, you are correct in regards to DBM players. They get their current 'killer' army and unless someone produces a major upset (as happened one year with the Cuman and later late Romans) at a major event, they are happy and buy very little.

It seems not to be the same with DBA players. Since those armies tend to be cheaper than DBM, those players are more willingto buy several armies in different eras and regions. The current trend is to collect matched pairs.

I am afraid that this killer army 'maxed out or glut' may soon hit the FOW WW2 players and I am sure that that it will be the case with the expensive 25mm WAB crowd as well.

This is one reason I am taking a lot of JR Mini terrain and expanding the book selection (over 2000 diffeent titles) to conventions this year.

Time Portal Hobbies

Yes, but at twelve elements, or at most 48 15mm figures for an army, that is not a lot of lead.

Compare that with the upwards of 300 25mm figures one sees in some WAB armies (usually barbarians). The WAB players make better customers because (1) they need more figures, and (2) because they are more likely to collect armies for the sake of collecting them.

WAB has been out for going on seven years. I have not seen too much of the mini-max stuff. Although, at most, I will only participate in one tournament type thingy a year (and not necessarily with WAB). Those I have been to tend to be pretty relaxed affairs, but I have seen an increase in the mini-maxed armies.

I think that WAB is really evolving in a different direction. With so many different supplements being released, there is a growing number of somewhat duplicative army lists. Many of these army lists really are not compatible with army lists from different supplements (i.e. play balance can be real off), and sometimes the supplements even have special rules. Thus event designers will find themselves more and more limited to a "Shieldwall" even, an "El Cid" event, ora "Byzantium" event.

Many of these army lists really are not compatible with army lists from different supplements (i.e. play balance can be real off), and sometimes the supplements even have special rules.

The intention with the supplements was that they would be largely self contained affairs. Some of the supplements even contain a blurb to the effect that against armies from other supplements teh game will not be blanaced. To be honest, what do players expect? Technology and devolpements in military practice will invetably make some armies better than others.

Zarquon stated,

"I really think that WAB appeals more to the modellers than to the hard core competative types. At every WAB tournament I have seen, the gamers seem more interested in the figures and painting. The most common questions appear to be, "What figures did you use?" and "How did you paint that?" As a result, the armies of WAB players generally are much nicer than for gamers using other rules."

I don't know about that. Having just played in the Cold Wars WAB tournament let me tell you they do get competitive. As far as WAB players being nicer, sure I'll take the compliment. There are alot of friendly and classy players at the WAB tournaments, that is indicative of the quality of player and not the ruleset.

Before playing I had the opportunity to walk around and watched some of the DBA, Warrior and Armati tournament games. Some of these armies were absolutely beautiful and the owners were only too happy to talk about the models, painting etc.

Frankly this getting into a ing match over whose rule set is the best is getting boring.

Ralph

For the record: my post was not about comparing rulesets, but about comparing types of players and their buying habits.
Personally, I don't care what somebody plays, how he collects his toys or if he is a tourny player or a historical gamer: whatever floats your boat!
I got into WAB mainly because that was the game I could get my friends to play. I also like the game and the way it is produced. But if I thought I would have been able to get my mates playing Piquet (to name something out of the DBx family for a change) or whatever, that would have been the game I played.

Cheers,

Peter

Sorry to hear about the tournaments. I have not played in a WAB tournament for about four years now. Although I did play in one of the WAB weekends in Nottingham, but that really does not count as a tournament - no one was really keeping score.

Then again, now that the rules have matured and gamers are figuing out the nasty tricks, etc., the tournament scene may very well have changed from what it was.

I think that one of the reasons there is more of an emphasis on the aesthetics of a WAB game is scale - plain and simple. One simply is more likely to lavish more attention on a 28mm figure than on a 15mm figure. (For those of us wearing bifocals, we can barely see the 15mm figure, let alone paint one.)

But then, I really think WAB is evolving in different directions. As more and more supplements are being released, WAB is becoming several games which share similar mechanics. The ECW game is not very compatible with the Ancient Rules; the Fantasy rules are not real compatible with either the ECW or Ancient rules. But with some tinkering, it is possible to play an ECW or Fantasy army against and ancients army. (Why one would WANT to do so is a different issue.)

Each supplement has its quirks and special rules and is really designed to be self contained. Occasionally, a supplement will refer to another (like the Byzantine supplement makes reference to Shieldwall and a future Crusades supplement.) Thus the rules are modified to reflect the period which is being played. I think this is a good thing. (But it will drive the tournament players crazy.)

Zarquon wrote:

"Each supplement has its quirks and special rules and is really designed to be self contained."

I sincerely hope that this will not be the case for the Punic wars supplements and the successor supplement!
(But from the little I know about Jeff and Allen, I doubt this will be a problem.)

Just came from the Tampa show. A small DBA tournament but not ONE WAB game being -played. Some of the guys still play a set called 'CLASH'