"Starting out in Ancients: WAB or DBA?" Topic

Which rules set should i use? i'm familiar with Warhammer and the rules, but DBA is tempting coz you need relatively models and i could do with trying something different. What should i go for? I'm playing 25-28mm.
Thanks

Check out the thread started by Legio V earlier today-it will probably answer some of your questions. You also might want to check out the Ancients Board archives as the question comes up on a not too infrequent basis.

If the idea of fewer models to prepare appeals to you, go DBA. However, most DBA players use 15mm, so it may be harder to find opponents.

28mm is the de facto scale for WAB, plus a familiarity with thw WH rules is a plus as well. Try to find a store or convention where both will be played and try them first before getting to far deep into it.

And as always, a question to ask is: what do the people you will be playing with play, or want to play?

Allen

WAB is the WHFB 54th ed rules re-written for ancients. Love it, but they play much the same a s fantasy, only faster 'cos there is no magic, and since Characters are a minor factor.

But if you want something different, DBA is definitely that. It's basically Rock/Paper/Scissors modified with dice rolls, meets chess without squares. It's an elegant system, and in case you have already heard the gripes about Phil Barker's writing style, the rules are in fact easy to read and learn.

I would therefore suggest DBA. But I would join the chorus – don't play it in 28MM unless you KNOW you have potential opponenets with armies in that scale, or intend to buy each army to provide one to your opponent…. 99% of DBA players play in 15mm

Last good thing about DBA – There are army lists for pretty much everyone from Early Imperial Roman to Hawaian armies (later Hawaian, earlier Hawaian, Hawaian around Teatime on a Sunday etc). If you DO decide to start playing WAB, and want to write your own army lists, the DBA/DBM/WAB three-step is the way to go. DBA – Ah, that's what the army MUST have / DBM – Ahh that's what the army CAN Have /WAB That's the troop type that matches and its points cost.

Pat

Personally, I'd say WAB. The rules are much easier to dive into for a newbie. Also, shoot for a 500 point army to start. This is not a lot of models, anywhere from 40-70 depending on the army (and could be less if going for a high points cost cav army).

Of the two I'd pick DBA, but I'd far rather play Might of Arms, or even Warmaster Ancients.

Doug

My advice, go with WAB. More long term interest than DBA. DBA games last 30-45 minutes and its like eating burgers, you want a change after a while.

The feel of the two is so very, very different, that I would strongly recommend you find a way to try each, then decide what you like. Both have their adherents who will throw lots of text at you about why their beloved set is best for you, but only you can decide what you enjoy.

Also, they cover two different scales of combat, two different ways of looking at it. Apples and oranges are both fruits, but…

Unfortunately, they have different basing schemes so you can't build an army that will work with both.

Oh, and ditto about considering what your friends play. I'm guessing you'll be happier building an army you'll get to use than building an army and watching your friends play while you try to convince them to convert to your rules.

By the way, DBA rules – you can play three games in an evening and you don't need an oversize table. Battles will play out with historical believability, but you'll know it was a fair game. With DBA you buy the rules for $15 USD and then you start reading the wonderful material on Fanaticus, and you're set for life, nothing else to buy. With WAB they will always find ways to tantalize you with more product. DBA is better. There, I said it.

Andrew

Very different styles of games. One based on the old idea of lots of individual based figues and throw lots of dice ("Featherstoneian"), well written and easy to understand and lots of support materials. The other based on newer concepts of stand based figures but only a few, throw one die for all combats. Not well written nor supported by the author or company (Barkerian). There is, however, a good, free, guide on how to play (a couple of flaws, watch out for Artillery outocomes)
wadbag.com/DBAGuide

Remember that DBA is not just for one on one, 15mm games on a 2 foot square board. You can do multi player, 25mm, large table games.
link

Your investment in getting figures for DBA is small, Romans vs Gauls is only only 50 figures per side for the one on one game.

If DBA were as well supported by the company as WAB is, I would give it unquestioned support. Given the difficuly for a new person to catch on, I rank it lower, but IF YOU HAVE HELP, a better choice.

Thanks for all this info guys. It supplements the input on the thread I started.

If I may, I'd like to ask this: If I'm really more into "skirmishy" gaming in 28mm, are either DBA or WAB the way to go? If not, I'll drop all this nonsense and run down a good skirmish rules set.

Also, about test driving both DBA and WAB, I'm going to Historicon next week — wow, next week already — and hope to at least see, if not play, both games. What are my chances of that?

Thanks again,

Legion

In all honesty, the vast majority of 28mm gaming these days is with WAB.

If I'm really more into "skirmishy" gaming in 28mm, are either DBA or WAB the way to go?

Go with WAB, then, I think the rules even have "Border Patrol" or somesuch which is specifically for small sized games.

that's a lot like asking if you'd like to watch baseball or football…

as has been stated, DBA is a VERY different game, much more abstract, and it's fun, in it's own right…

if you like skirmishy, and Warhammer, you'll probably be happier with WAB… if you liked Warmaster you'll probably like DBA… both fun, yet very different

also, if you have an Empire army, a lot of the figures are interchangeable with Warhammer/WAB… archers/crossbows/knights/commanders/standards/musicians

have fun :D

I think neither DBA nor WAB are skirmishy. WAB has single figures but hundreds of them. DBA has stand based figures but they represent Divisions/Legions/etc/. I have played games were I considered each DBA stand to be a squad, but not ancients. How do you skrimish with Pike blocks and elephants. Phil tried a DBA based skirmish game – DBV – but I cannot get it to work. Rules are here

link

Best would be to find some rules actually written for small actions, that is to say a skirmish game.

By the way, it is not true that the vast majority of 25mm gaming is with WAB. I do not even know how to measure such an idea. Let's limit this to areas, perhaps. In my area there is more 25mm DBA than WAB. I think at the US east coast conventions there is more 25mm DBM than WAB. But, what the heck does the amount of games played in a specific scale have to do with anything?

I do agree that one of the first criteria for selecting a new game system to to find out what your friends will do, or what is done in your area, if you want opponents. The typical development of a DBA player is for him to get opposing armies so opponents need not have figures.

I haven't owned or played any GW rules or figures since I became disillusioned with the company about eight years ago.

And I'm torn now, because it is the abstract about DBA that appeals to me. But, I really like skirmish.

Ultimately yes, I'll have to make up my own damn mind. But, … Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope.

Please keep the advice coming.

I read the thread at first as DBM vs WAB, for which there could be arguments over which is more suitable but then I realised you were asking about DBA vs WAB. DBA armies are cheap and quick to paint up in 15mm. So buy multiple armies with different themes.. spears, blades, cav whatnot… and start painting on them. Then in 28mm you can start working on a WAB army.

I play both but they are so different I don't see why there is any need to choose between the two. Throw efficiency out the door! Go to your local gamestore… get both sets of rules then buy whatever figures in whatever scale catches your eye and go from there. It's the gamers way.

I prefer DBA.

If you're looking for skirmish rules, there is one GW product I enjoy playing, their Lord of The Rings rules. You could easily drop out the fantasy bits and still have a decent set of medieval-ish skirmish rules.

Of course, there's DBAOnline; so you can learn and play that game, whilst painting your 28s. Personally I wouldn't base them for WAB, though.

Simon

Asia Invincible, you make a good case. ; )

"I haven't owned or played any GW rules or figures since I became disillusioned with the company about eight years ago."

If that is a major reason you don't want to pick up WAB, I'd have to say I think it's unfounded. I got burned out on what GW has turned into, but Warhammer historicals has a much more homey feel like GW back in the mid 80's. It's a side project and labor of love for most of the guys – you can even communiate directly with Rob Broom and other folks in the Yahoo groups.

Though I prefer WAB to DBA (I like the look of lots of figures on the table), I'd follow Allen's advice and see what others are playing in your area. Based on the numbers of players at the Shield conference on the west coast, it seemed WAB was becoming the more popular system, but it sounds like the east coast is more DBA focused.

Alexander the Pretty Good – if you're already familiar with WFB then why not try DBA since it'll be a new experience? Set up costs are low so if you hate it you won't have lost out much and DBA armies always sell on ebay.

Varus – If your after a genuine skirmish game, i.e. where each figure moves independently then neither WAB or DBA are probably what your after. Pig Wars (although strictly medievel not ancients) or something similar might float your boat – 20 single based figs per player.

Warmaster Ancients might be just what you are looking for. In a lot of ways the rules are the best of WAB blended with the best of DBA.

If you already play Warhammer you pretty much know if you will like WAB.

DBA is very, very different. You can learn it just from the rule book and Bob's DBA comentary (I did), but it is very hard going that way.

DBA vs WAB is like backgammon vs Monopoly. Both involve rolling dice and moving tokens around a board….

I too am starting to play a bit of Warmaster Ancients. It has been fun for the two games I have played so far but I am still very much a beginner.

Do you like one on one competition? DBA is a competition set of rules, for large battles, highly abstacted, and requireing very few figures. Good for either 15 or 25's and known world wide. Rules resemble the legal code for a nation of lawyers, stunningly prepared in full color, as long as you consider black and white colors. This system is vastly superior to most for chess like timed competitions.

WAB is a fun game, more miniatures, usually 25mm, best for scenario's and not as useful for one on one competitions. Neither WAB nor DBA are "simulations" in any possible sense, but they don't need to be. Each does what it does well. WAB rule books are printed in full color and are very pretty. Better for multiplayer and club type settings.

These are not the only two possibilities. If they were I would not do the period. Period.

FWIW, my views:

DBA: Limited interest to me. To quick and too abstract for my tastes.

Warmaster: Good game but I feel the rules have little period feel and the armies are too 'samey'. I also have Blitzkrieg Commander (the WWII version of WMA) and there's little difference to them. Substitute panzers for phalanx :-)

Might of Arms: In my view an excellent set of rules for massed armies in 15mm. Look like real battles and seems to produce results which are credible. I also like Ancient Warfare by the late Tery Gore. very good rules but the combat is a little complex for my liking.

WAB: My preferred set. Commonly played in 28 mm and I like 28 mm figures. Overall for me, a game which is great fun as well as good to play. Armies have very unique feel to them and the games always seem to give a very Hollywood style portrayal of a battle/period. As my primary reason for playing is enjoyment and fun, rather than immense concentration and constant referral to tables, WAB has always been the set I enjoy most. The Hannibal supplement in my view is outstanding and a Republican Roman army is a very interesting one to own , research and play.

If you go for double sized 15mm bases for 28mm DBA it has (more or less) the same size as WAB. So you can use your models for both games. And there are enough ancient armies, that you can use for DBA as enemies and for WAB as allies (Numidians and caesarian romans for example).

DBA, although my DBA based stuff tends to get used with other Ancients rules sets (which assume DBA basing). I gather it is feasible to play WAB with multi-based stuff.

Modern '25mm' figures do not fit on DBA 25mm bases, although proper 25mm (ie 1/72nd scale plastic ones) do.

I read Legio V's post thinking it was mine and replied to ikt. But after reading these arguments i think ive changed my mind. I will go for DBA and get some 15's from a suitably cheap manufacturer. If i like it then yay! lol. If i don't i splash out on some more expenisve WAB armies. well not splash out, i mean laboriously save up and paint for a year but oh well.

But thanks again to everyone, all of your advice was helpful and interesting.

Alexander

Again, have a look at Hoplon. If you like the way that DBA plays… Hoplon is similar in many respects, but has a bit more detail…. You will need about 2x the number of figures in a DBA army to play Hoplon though… It is technically for larger armies of 100-400 figures (depending upon the army)

Didn't see it posted yet (might've missed it), but one way you might be able keep the number of figures down for WAB is get an army that has a high point ratio for the models. I think something like Norman/Crusader knights and samurai are pretty high in points value per; those brave, mounted, heavily armed & armored types, I think.

Oh just caught it; Hastati already alluded to it with his comment on using high-cost cav.

29 posts before Judas mentioned Hoplon. Hoplon you are getting slow

DBA allows players to field a lot of armies for the same cost as one army in DBM or WAB. it is all a matter of what level of combat appeals to you.

Why not try both?

Glue the models to card bases and play one system for a while. Then rip them off and rebase them for the other system. Try that for a while too. Then permanently base for the system you prefer. After all, what you prefer is all that matters.

One thought — WAB is, like the Games Workshop rules, a very expensive rules investment if you buy all the period army list books, and even the rules set plus one army list book is around $70, so you might want to try DBA first, which costs $12. USD

Georgem,

I wanted to see what direction the thread was going in…

I caught it before even one post had been made.

I wish that I had known that one of the posters on this thread had been going to Historicon, or I would have sent a specific invitation to come by and see how Hoplon plays, and I would have even gone as far as to teach him DBA as well (to get an idea of the comparison). But, I would not be able to do much to show him WAB, as it is not my cup of tea.

I prefer a game that is more of a simulation than WAB is, or DBM for that matter. I consider DBA to be more of a simulation than I do DBM, as the levels of abstraction are consistent with the scale whereas DBM's level of abstraction is too great for the level of scale (if it were consistent with the scale then they would not be having all of the troubles with DBM that people are having)…

I would still advise anyone looking for a GOOD set of Ancients Rules to both have a look and try Hoplon (as a look really isn't going to give a person a real feel for the game). I got some pretty decent exposure at Historicon for Hoplon, and I imagine that if I can keep making appearances at Conventions that next year I should have quite a lot of interest in Hoplon. I am also happy to see that both Vis Bellica and Armati have pretty good showings as well. I will be happy if in a couple of years I see more Armati, Vis Bellica and Hoplon that I do DBM (or I see a new and improved DBM that actually works properly).

Until then, I will keep promoting Hoplon at each and every opportunity.

"I consider DBA to be more of a simulation than I do DBM, as the levels of abstraction are consistent with the scale whereas DBM's level of abstraction is too great for the level of scale"

I agree with that 100%.

1. No Quarter
2. Wargames Journal
3. White Dwarf
4. Miniature Wargames
5. Wargames Illustrated
6. Battlegames

I subscribe/buy all issues to all the magazines in the above list. I will be subscribing to Wargames Soldiers and Strategy after picking up a copy at Sentry.

I will not be renewing my subscriptions for WD, MW, WI and BG magazines.

O.K., this is a trick question!

The correct answer is … both!

The advantage of historical miniatures is that you do not have to tie yourself to one set of rules. You can play many different rules using the same armies.

Yes, basing can be a problem, so base to the lowest common denominator and use sabots for element stands.

So play WAB for a while, then DBA, then Ancient Warfare, Might of Arms, Armati and whatever else takes your fancy — and choose for yourself.

It's like asking what flavor of ice cream is best. It's all good.

I do not know… You are aware that there have been attempts by Ice Cream makers to "Branch out" into what they called "Snack Flavors". such as: Ranch and Potatoe salad, Spinach Quiche, Chicken Mole (That is pronouced Mol-ay), and other flavors that one would not really either think of or really want in an ice cream…

What if a game is actually the equivalent of Asperagus and mornay sauce (I realize that I have mis-spelled Mornay) ice cream?

Personally, I get the feeling that many games have the same quality that Ben and Jerry did when they tried to branch out into this type of ice cream. They are flavors that are fine as the foods that they originally began as, but they just do not make the transition well to another media.