"How long should rules last? Poor quality from Slitherine" Topic

I got my FOG v2 on 31st Dec 2012, just over 1 month later whilst playing at PAW 2013 this happened:

I contacted Slitherine Customer services…

They said that it's user wear and tear and implied that less than 2 months usage (1 read through, various flick throughs and 6 actual game usages) is an acceptable timespan for damage to occur that absolves them from any responibility for delivering a product that is not fit for purpose.

My V1 book that's had 4 years use is still fine with no problems. V2 is patently a poorer quality product in terms of the physical book but Slitherine do not appear to see this.

Should you purchase the physical book rather than the e-book do not be surprised if it falls apart sooner than you expected, more over do not be surprised if Slitherine show no intent to rectify the matter.

After reading a post on WD3 I get the impression that they didn't want to do a hard copy version at all. This seems to be their way of proving a point.

They went with the cheapest way of binding. Rules should not fall apart after just a few months of use.

I've got 80 year old books that have held up better than that.

Thanks for the warning. While I'd agree that you've had a bad customer service experience and their QC and choice of printer are poor, you can easily get that sort of damage repaired if desired. Most areas have some kind of local bookbinding service available – often your local library can recommend a reliable company to do the work, and the end result will be more durable than a replacement copy would be. Of course, it will cost you extra, adding another layer of annoyance to the process.

There's got to be a Harry Potter joke that can be made about trusting a company called Slitherine, but I haven't had my coffee yet so I'll leave to humor to others.

well the book issue is not a slitherine mistake. printing was done by osprey. since their books all last so long,this is strange. i would contact them. which you should have done first. imho.

I'd suggest you go back to whoever you bought the book from and ask them for a replacement.

I had a similar book and it fell apart as well. When asking a book maker said that "it was a softbound book with a hardbound cover". Meaning that what we think of as hardbound books are one with stitched pages and what we think of as softbound are those with glued pages. Basically any hardbound book done like that will fall apart sooner rather then later.

Your V2 should certainly last longer. My V1 is still going strong. I didn't buy V2 as I wasn't sure there was enough new content to justify it. IMO, after a couple of tournaments … indeed, there isn't.

I hope you get it replaced.

Phil

RudyNelson

well the book issue is not a slitherine mistake. printing was done by osprey. since their books all last so long,this is strange. i would contact them. which you should have done first. imho.

V2 is print on demand by a different company once you've purchased via Slitherine, Osprey did v1 which is still in relatively good condition.

More over I purchased the book through the Slitherine website, they sold it to me therefore they are responsible for the product I purchased.

I did contact Slitherine before posting here and on the slitherine forums…as already stated…

I contacted Slitherine Customer services…

Margard

I'd suggest you go back to whoever you bought the book from and ask them for a replacement.

I should not have to. Having explaiend the issue to them I'd expect them to offer one however as they refuse to accept any responsibility they've offered me nothing. Hence my recourse to posting here so that others are forwarned.

I msg'd JD directly on the Slitherine forums once Customer Service slammed the proverbial door in my face and I await the outcome there.

As a person who publishes rulebooks and deals with printers, I've been frustrated for years by how hard it is to get good binding done at a reasonable price.

Even expensive bindings that are supposedly more durable, often have problems.

Gamers might like spiral binders, but nobody else does; they don't package well, retailers don't like them on the shelf because they snag and are unattractive, they add weight and size, thus costing more…. But spirals are probably the only sure way to do a rulebook that people are going to want to use a lot. (Unless the booklet is so thin that you can just center-staple it.)

I get the impression that they didn't want to do a hard copy version at all. This seems to be their way of proving a point.

They made the announcement that the V2 would be all-electronic only, which caused an uproar, so they had to scramble to do a book also.

What Dynaman8789 ssaid – you can't just stick a heavy paperback into a hard cover and expect it to stay there.

Print on demand is easy to do, but binding is another matter. The glues used (pretty much no one does quality stitch binding these days – far too exepensive for most applications) seem a lot more brittle. All of my Flames of War books fell apart very quickly. So I would coil bind them for $5 USD at Kinko's before I even got home.

As a gamer I like coil bindings. They are durable, lay flat and you can even back fold the book. Comb bindings are not as good but are much cheaper. For rule books hard cover is my least favorite binding followed by paperback. As a retailer paperback is my favorite!

This is a pretty standard mistake for a company's first hard-cover, unfortunately. Given the history of the product, they probably should have offered a soft-cover that folks can spiral bind later.

Doing it to a hard-cover book is kind of a pain.

Lesson learnt from me RPG days, I always buy the PDF and use a display book or folder. Failing that, I slice 'em up if they don't contain a ready reference sheet and arn't coffee resistant.

stenicplus;
I know that this isn't the best option, but if you enjoy the rules, it will allow you to still continue to use them. Go to Staples or some other Printing copy, as they can carefully pull them apart and then put them in a coil binding with a plastic front and back cover for a very reasonable price. I had to do this with 2 rule books, and I am very glad I spent the money to do it as they now stay open, allow for thumbing through, etc.

Good Luck!!

I'd suggest you go back to whoever you bought the book from and ask them for a replacement.

I should not have to. Having explained the issue to them I'd expect them to offer one however as they refuse to accept any responsibility they've offered me nothing.

Yes, you should. The only people responsible for replacing a faulty product are the ones you bought it from. Since they are a UK based company they are subject to Trading Standards regulations. If they won't play ball, then I suggest you follow the advice here:
link

Claiming "wear and tear" after only 2 months is faintly ridiculous.

Hot glue the binding back on the spine.
Use clear packing tape to secure the cover to the last page of the book.
You're back in business.

Or, bite the bullet and have a spiral binding put on.
I would think that might be difficult to do to the hard cover though.

Damn third-world back-alley print shops!

""Your V2 should certainly last longer. My V1 is still going strong. I didn't buy V2 as I wasn't sure there was enough new content to justify it. IMO, after a couple of tournaments … indeed, there isn't.

I hope you get it replaced. Phil ""

After having finally played some V2 games I am quite happy with the changes and believe, overall, they improve the game. Two reasons you should buy the book (1) There are just enough changes to warrant the purchase (2) Support of the company, if your going to play their game you should buy the book.

IMHO of course
Mike B

mbsparta

This is not not about the rules nor how good they may or not be.

Support of the company, if your going to play their game you should buy the book.

Oh, and it occurs to me that should be a two-way process.

After buying FOG v1, all the army list books bar the Far East one, FOGR and FOG V2 I think a little support is not too much to ask for.

If you have no luck getting a replacement you can PVA along the length of the spine and it should provide a reasonable repair, I had the same happen with my copy of the Ugo Pericoli Waterloo book and the repair still holds. When my copy of Might & Reason started to look a bit shabby I decided to take the pages apart and with plastic sleeves put them in a ring binder,you might consider that if you're not keen on the PVA idea. Matt.

I was very wary of this happening when the POD was announced, so I asked on the FoG list and was assured that the quality was as good as V1

Someone lied.

Glad I didn't buy the damn thing now.

IMO Osprey/Slitherine have done their best to kill FOG as a ruleset and this is just another nail in its coffin.

Pete, yes, my V1 is a far better quality than V2, the naked eye can see that.

I suspect overtime there will be more issues like mine. Whilst I could be wrong it occurs to me that the revised tables at the back of V2 and lack of QRS mean players refer to the back of the book more often, thus putting undue stress on the binding that is not up to the job.

If over time ,as more tournaments and games are played, I prove to be right it will be cold comfort.

That book is not fit for purpose.
Simple.
Anyone who has any notion of retail and sales can tell you that.

Who ever you purchased it from owes you a new one.

It does not matter who 'made' it, you did not buy it from them.

More over I purchased the book through the Slitherine website, they sold it to me therefore they are responsible for the product I purchased.

Exactly, I mean whatever next…

I buy a car from Ford which breaks but the part that broke was made in China, so I contact the factory in China who say they imported the part from Russia, so I contact Russia and they say they made the part using ceramics from the Americans, so I contact the Americans and they say if there is a problem with the mud used in their ceramics I better take it up with Mother Earth?
Rot, sellers are resposible for what they sell.

Threaten them with small claims, it won't cost you much, it will cost them more and they will find in your favour easy.

You missed Germany. It would be assembled in Germany. By Polish workers. Using Czech made tools. :-)

There is a QRS for v2 available online now – so at least that will save wear and tear on the book.

I'm happy to report Slitherine have now contacted me and we've resolved the matter satisfactorily.

Where is the QRS for V2 I can't find it at FOG site ?

I'm happy to report Slitherine have now contacted me and we've resolved the matter satisfactorily.

Good stuff.
Shame they did not sort it right away, but huzzah!
Fingers crossed the next one stays togther, unless you got a refund in which case, no matter!

The QRS is available in the files section of the FieldOfGlory yahoo group

Hi

"The QRS is available in the files section of the FieldOfGlory yahoo group"

Great thanks for that

Cheers

The binding on the spine is certainly not as good as on FOG1 or FOGR but I wouldn't say it was poor. I think the book will last because once you have read it a couple of times the QRS is sufficient and the book itself becomes an occasional reference tool.
And I certainly wouldn't say FOG2 has killed FOG and from my experience it has made a better game. So far of the half dozen regular FOG players at our club only one has not yet purchased FOG2.

Late to the party but a quick question – are all the army books I purchased for FOG v1 fully compatible with FOG v2?

Essentially yes. There is one page of army list amendments published in the FOG2 rulebook covering things like upgrading selected picked warriors for assorted armies but 99%(?) of the original army lists remain unchanged.

Thanks, Vespasian28 – that's a relief :)

If you paid with a credit card you have another solution – charge back. Your credit card company is very interested in keeping your account. Call them, tell the problem, ask for a charge back. I have never had a refusal when dealing with business riff-raff. They simply draw all the money from the offending account, and credit it to yours.