"To WAB in 28mm or to DBM in 15mm?" Topic

I need some advice to make my mind. In this moment I am collecting a 28 mm Ancient Spanish Army for WAB. Mostly Gripping Beast and some Old Glory and Foundry. While I am doing for the sake of painting I am not in a hurry to get all the necesary figures. But I have realize that, being the only interested in the period in my home town, I will have to collect a Republican Roman army and will take ages.
Then I pick some Spanish in 15 mm from Corvus Belli and get a copy of DBM. Will it be more easy and fun to play collect both armies in 15 mm and play DBM? What company does Spanish and Republican romans in 15 mm and how much, in money and time, will it cost in Spain?

Fun and DBM in the same sentence? Impossible!

If you want to play in 15mm, you could also take a look at Hoplon (despite the name it covers a wide range of periods). The game is

Discussion group is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AMS_Hoplon

Free download is on our site www.amazonminiatures.com
(you need to register to access the downloads)

Would suggest you look at Museum Miniatures and Chariot Miniatures.

Paul

Amazon Miniatures

How to really start a fight! Get us going on the whole WAB vs. DBM thing.

The important thing to remember is that they are very different games. IMHO, they appeal to different personality types, and they reflect very different gaming philosophies.

In my experience, the people who play DBM loathe WAB, and the people who play WAB absolutely hate DBM. Of course their are the exceptions -- I just don't know any of them personally.

I would strongly recommend that you try to play both at a convention. Demonstration games and loaner armies are at many conventions tournaments. Play them both, and my guess is that you will end up liking one and hating the other.

Another advantage of this approach is that you get someone to teach you the rules. This is particularly useful for DBM, which is written in a language other than English. But even WAB has its subtleties, and you can save yourself a whole lot of frustration by having someone teach the rules. (Another download that you can access through Amazon Miniatures is a very good WAB cheatsheet.)

15mm DBM.(or better still if you want more fun, Double DBA) Well, thats my taste anyway. However, as Zarquon said, give both (all?) a try. Same for scale. I prefer the "mass troops" looks of many small scale figs, but I have friends who wax poetic about eye shadow detail on a 28mm. Ancients is a VERY personalized hobby!

for 15mm I would suggest DBA. The armies are smaller, the rules are more clearly written, and best of all they are not about to go into a new edition.

For 28mm WAB is a good choice.

mind the two games are nothing alike.

try them both then decide to play Hack. That's what I did.

Well, you've had pretty darn good advice so far (play what other people around you are playing, start with DBA, etc., etc.). Here are my two cents' worth.

Painting up your 28mm Spanish, and their Roman counterparts, is going to take you a while. Enjoy the painting! There isn't an "official" Spanish list for WAB yet--but I've written it! It should be out as part of the Punic Wars supplement sometime in 2005; the details of exactly when will be up to the Warhammer Historical staff.

If you'd like, e-mail me at aecurtisATgteDOTnet, and you can take a look at the draft of the army list. That may help you avoid buying figures you won't need when the list comes out. Although with Spanish, there's not much you can't use...

While you're working on the 28mm armies, knock out a DBA army for each, or better yet, as Calico Bill suggests, a "double DBA" army for each. That won't break the bank (nor will the rules), as you will need quite a bit less than 100 15mm figures for each double DBA army, and you can have fun seeing how the game mechanisms work out. Then if you want to play something other than DBA/DBM, your 15mm troops will still be based to a common standard to play Classical Hack, Might of Arms, or many other fine rulesets.

My 15mm Republican Romans are mostly Donnington, as are most of my Spanish. They're a little old, but I still like the figures. Other, more up-to-date 15mm players may have other suggestions.

Allen (who prefers WAB, but despite often poking fun at DBM and some of its more fanatic adherents, doesn't loathe it)

Yep, pretty good advise so far.

You really have to play both to see which you prefer. And I also recomend you start with DBA. You can get the armies put together quicker. If you end up not liking DBA, you probably won't like DBM.

In my opinion, DBM (and DBA) are quite suitable for the Republican and early Imperial Roman eras. While DBM is often said to be a "tournament" rule set only, this is not really true. It works very well in some periods, and the Republican Roman period is one, so you should get some quite interesting games out of your Spanish and Romans. Variaty is the key here. If you play the same armies time and time again, you will lose interest no mater which rule set. The beauty of DBA, because of the low number of figures involved, is that you can expand into other armies from the same period at little expense.

Hope this helps,
JohnG

Collect both. Never sell anything.

I play WHAB and DBA and they are two very diferent games. A thought I have had is to play DBM size armies with DBA rules, I think that would be pretty good (or at least not as complicated as DBM).

If you can, play them both several times. While WHAB uses units, it still tries to be very "skirmishy" in concept, such as do your units have leaders, standards and musicians (which cost extra), instead of just making the wargaming assumption that all units have appropriate leaders, standards and musicians.

There is also no reason you can't play both, depending on what you are trying to recreate.

Blow off both scales and buy them in 1/72 plastic instead. That way you can do all the armies in question for both games cheaper than choosing either 15 or 25mm.

:-)

John

Jake B.

I agree. Collect both and don't sell anything. That's why my home is overflowing with miniatures soldiers...

Dave Crowell

I would say, try both then take up Ancient Warfare. (which is easily played with both 15mm and 28mm.)

It's just that WAB and DBx are the two gorillas of the ancient gaming world. Someone who is doing ancients really should be familiar with both.

To pick up an earlier point, one advantage of 15mm is that all of the ancients rulesystems share the same basing scheme--40mm wide bases with varying depth based on troop type. If you don't like DA/M, you can move to manyother systems.

WHAB is another beast altogether. 25/28mm is not as popular in the DBx crowd because the basing does not work well with the increasing figure-scale creep (60mm wide bases were fine for true 25mm figures, but don't work well with 28+mm figures). Many old grognards still love 25mm ancients, but I gather most "new" 28mm enthusiasts are WHAB players.

Sargento,

I`m not going to comment on the rules because that`s a personal choice. But 15mm is going to be both cheaper and quicker to get painted up for sure.
Magister Militum has Navigator and Chariot 15mm and is free postage worldwide on reasonable sized orders, that can save quite a bit of money, or buy in bulk from Lancashire Games (15mm battle packs) that is also a good option.

If you like the idea of micro measuring your moves DBM is the one to go for.

WAB is foe the person who likes an open road with no speed limits.

The Best 15mm Spanish and Romans I have seen recently are Pass o' the North

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/Bazaar/POTN/index.html

Good service to gamers outside of US. Reviews here

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/reviews/revpotn.html

Start with DBA sized armies and then build up. Read up on DBMM and pass DBM by.

http://www.phil-barker.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

Bob

Personally, I play both WAB and DBM. Both are a lot of fun, altho they are very different. WAB is a good deal easier to play and learn, but almost every army has its own set of "special rules", and some troop types have some rules which are poorly thought out and produce comical results. My solution is to play armies that the rules work well for and not worry about anomalies too much.

DBM is also fun, but more complex and chess-like. I hear people say things like Amazon started us off with, to the effect that DBM is no fun. Obviously, many people disagree with that, given the game's huge popularity worldwide. If you enjoy tournamnet play and the ability to take your troops on the road virtually anywhere and still get a game, go DBM. If you are not one of us driven competitive tournament types, play WAB.

BOTH games are fun, BOTH are worth painting for.

Thanks a lot to everybody. I will make a try with DBA in 15 mm but I am still in love with the 28 mm Roman Republicans that Gripping Beast does, any has something to say about them? What other company does Republicans in 28 mm that can match?

Gracias de nuevo.

If you don't like DBA (or even if you do) you also have the option of playing Warmaster (not Warhammer) with your 15mm figures. Quite allot of gamers where I come from are using their 15mm DBA armies to play Warmaster with historical armies, no re-basing required and the rules are available for free from the Games Workshop website

There is a Warmaster Historical Yahoo Group as well.

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/historical-warmaster/

Also the wargames Journal has several articles on how to use Warmaster in several different scales and periods

www.wargamesjournal.com

Hope that helps...

If selling in the future is a consideration, their is a larger market for painted 15mm based on DBX basing than the growing 25mm WAB market.

Different approaches to the same era. Like skirmish 25mm and i=unit 15mm combat during WW2 or the Colonial. Both have their supporters and can be enjoyed on their own.

In the South USA more players play friendly games of DBA, while DBM players tend to be more tournament oriented. WAB has pockets of supporters. At conventions you will always find games of DBA and/or DBM but not always games of WAB.

Oh yes, I have heard of warmaster players but I have never seen a historical game at any of the more than a dozen conventions that I attend each year. Of course if the rules are free, then it cannot hurt to check them out.

If DBA is like checkers
Then DBM is like chess

That makes WAB like ... hummmm ... WAB

Keep plugging away with your 28 mm Spanish army. You started them for some reason. Paint 1000 points of them and then switch to your Romans. Before you know it you will be able to play small games.

I played DBA when it first came out. After several games it got real boring for me. And I can't for the life of me understand why it remains popular. But it still is. I have been painting WAB armies for over 5 years now. I never get bored with the game or 28 mm miniatures. I can't even see 15mm figures not alone paint them.

Keep plugging away with your Spanish!

Mike B

Rumour has it that GW are going to be making a Warmaster Historical game?

There's quite a few army lists available online for all kinds of Warmaster armies including but not limited to: Ancients, English Civil War & American Civil War.

The rules need a little tweeking, but the army lists and rules conversions (in the case of the ACW) all give any rules changes that they have used.

Aslo worth a look are the Wargames Journal articles that I mentioned.

Did I mention that the rules are FREE?!

How about you break free of the dull WAB:DBx DBx:WAB grinding argument since both camps will throw peanuts at each other until the End of Days.

Come and join the Drug Crazed Fiends that Play Vis Bellica.
We accept any basing and any scale.
We do good scenario battles and drink lots of beer.

Oh yes, we have a better sex life than WAB players and less acne that DBxers.

Vis Bellica: there's an alternative?

I myself perfer ancient empires. It allows players to run armies the way they moved in ancient times. (quickly takes bribe from the author). but it is not a simple game but it does allow for units to get into combat fairly quickly

warmaster historical with double sized bases in 1/72 plastics :)

Thurlac - don't you have your Sex life/Acne thing reversed?

"Not tonight dear, because I flee when doubled in bed going in my Spouse(R)'s bound, or when scoring an odd number, and flanked by an element of Children(I) in my own bound."

"I am still in love with the 28 mm Roman Republicans that Gripping Beast does, any has something to say about them?"

I just got a bunch of them and have started painting them this week. (My aim is to have an army by the time the Punic Wars WAB supplement arrives. Unlike you I am fortunate enough to have a friend who just started collecting a Punic army.) They are great sculpts and the etrusco-corinthian helmet is really well done imo. Detail is crisp, flash and mould lines minimal. They seem to paint up really well.
In size they are on the smaller end of Gripping Beasts ranges: more like the older Foundry Imperial Romans. Their hastati have about an equal amount of montefortino and etrusco-corinthian helmets. Their principes/triarii are mainly wearing the latter, which is why I am stil considering if I should use GB for my principes figures or not.
They provide cast spears for the triarii an pila for the others. Command is limited to two packs, which is still more than a lot of other companies.

You might also want to look at Newline designs, 1st Corps and Navigator.

Good luck with your project (whichever you may choose)!

Peter

Hdanhotep,

Yes, what worries me is the introduction of the "spent" outcome in the DBMM rules....

Thurlac -

Well, Phil *is* getting on in years... :-)

wolfslayer - I am still looking for the conversion kit for using DBA-based miniatures for WAB. Can you provide a more detailed link? Thanks!

I don't know if there is a conversion kit, per se. I think you are making it more difficult than it really is.

Just match figure to figure and err in favor of getting as many figures into the fight as reasonably possible. I have used multi-basing on a number of occasions. The biggest problem comes with skirmishers. But if you are not into a white knuckled, tight assed style of play, just make up reasonable compromises with your opponent. WAB is not a good game for rules lawyers.