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"Hordes of the Things or Fantasy Rules! ?" Topic


Fantasy Rules!

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TwoGunBob18 Nov 2004 9:42 a.m. PST

Each time both of these rules are mentioned people are generally filled with praise. Looking over websites I have been completely impressed with armies generated for both systems as they are filled with creativity, imgination, and enthusiasm. Lawn Garden Gnome armies, Flash Gordon forces, inspiring stuff to say the least.
Right now I am on the fence between the two systems as HOTT is cheaper and a printed bound version while apparently Fantasy Rules! is offered in PDF format only for almost twice the price. While HOTT looks like the winner I'm curious if I'm missing something between these two rule systems. Opinions? Thoughts?

CommanderCarnage18 Nov 2004 9:56 a.m. PST

Both are excellent. I would give the slight nod to Fantasy Rules.

CC

mikeg9918 Nov 2004 10:01 a.m. PST

Both are excellent games but it depends what you are looking for. HOTT plays like DBA with a few extra wrinkles. Magic is abstract. Games are quick. In FR3!, the armies are a little larger, games can be a little longer, and magic is more in lines what you would expect when you play a fantasy game. I have both games and anything you do for HOTT can be placed on a temporary bases for FR3!.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian18 Nov 2004 10:09 a.m. PST

Have you played miniature games before?

Also, do you already have an army? Or are you putting your first together?

Lastly, what do your local players prefer?

streetline18 Nov 2004 10:20 a.m. PST

Point on army size - hordes armies are traditionally smaller but can be as large as you like, just using the "Big Battle" rules at the back. Come over to the Hordes group at yahoogroups, we'll convert you... :)

TwoGunBob18 Nov 2004 10:27 a.m. PST

It will be the first fantasy army assembled previous genres were WWII, Sci-Fi, Flintloque etc. However this is a transition into fantasy. Locally, everyone plays WHFB but I'm going the hard road with an alternative system to WHFB.

The Dread Pirate GeorgeD18 Nov 2004 10:36 a.m. PST

I am a convert to Fantasy Rules 3. It has the right mix of playibility and complexity that I like without being gimicky. I havent tried Hordes yet so I might not be the best judge. From what I have seen, you could do whatever you want with both sets. So I guess it depends on what people in your area are playing.

GeorgeD

blaker18 Nov 2004 10:37 a.m. PST

I have both HOTT and FR3!. I like both, I play both. They both have their good points and I like that you can be creative in both to build your own armies using their guidelines. Now with that said, I build armies for HOTT first, then when I play FR3! I have sabot bases that I stick the HOTT bases onto, that way, I just paint one army and use it for both.

Also, since you have some Flintloque minis already, you can create a HOTT and/or FR3! with those minis. Just use sabot bases.

I have several WHFB armies that I have converted to HOTT (I do not play WHFB any more) and they are a hoot! Especially when I pull them out around some of the hard core WHFB players and finish about 3 games of HOTThammer before they are through with their first :-)

I would start with HOTT then do FR3 cuz if you base strictly for FR3 then the bases will not really work well with HOTT .

Paintbeast18 Nov 2004 10:42 a.m. PST

For your first Fantasy game I would go with HOTT. The fact it is cheaper carries a great deal of weight when you realize that you might need to invest in two armies if you want to convert your friends. I have the earlier (printed) version of "Fantasy Rules!" and it is a fine game and I own the newer version of HOTT. I am doing HOTT in 15mm and converting my odd collection of fanatasy figures over to "Fantasy Rules!".

Splintered Light Miniatures Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Nov 2004 10:46 a.m. PST

I would recommend going with FR!3. I have loved playing it. Lot's of options and abilities to make really unique armies that all play differently, with different items and characters.

westphalia18 Nov 2004 10:50 a.m. PST

I used to intensely dislike fantasy gaming, but I was introduced to "FR!-2" a few years back. I haven't played the newest version yet, but I very much enjoyed version 2. I chose to build a 15mm Soviet WWII fantasy army, using the old Harlequin 28mm figure of Joseph Stalin as my monster. T-26s were battlewagons, etc. Gave a whole new meaning to "horde" army. I also liked the fact that the whole game was based (pardon the pun) on 40mmx40mm bases, which made it easy to sabot figures based for other systems. Magic also had the right feel within the rules, in that you couldn't cast a spell and clear the board at a whim. Planning and tactics still mattered, which made the transition from historical gaming a little easier.

I haven't tried HOTT, because I so dislike DBA and the way it's written, and just haven't worked up the courage to buy a copy and read it. That being said, a few of my friends swear by it, so take that for what it may be worth. I do know that their games play smoothly and quickly, and they can complete three or four games in a couple of hours with no problems. "FR!" tended to take a little longer - say, 60-90 minutes per game, depending on the points, of course.

Chogokin Fezian18 Nov 2004 11:34 a.m. PST

You may want to consider Thanesgames' Armies of Arcana as well. It might be described as what WHFB should have been. It's more similar to WHFB than either Hott or FR, and might be more useful in seducing players away from the Dark Side.

Vis Bellica18 Nov 2004 11:38 a.m. PST

Or my "Vis Magica" rules: www.vismagica.com

SirG

Xenophonii18 Nov 2004 11:43 a.m. PST

Both HoTT and FR are good. They are strikingly similiar in many ways - play one and the other is familiar. Honestly, I'd get them both!

TwoGunBob18 Nov 2004 11:53 a.m. PST

Seems I was right that it just pure preference. Both games are well liked all around. Thanks for the responses as it seems I will end up getting both in the end after all.

Spectralwraith18 Nov 2004 12:39 p.m. PST

I havn't played FR, But I do play HoTT and even though the base game is relatively abstract, with a little creative imagination, you can quite easily de-abstract it with home brewed rule modifications to spice things up a bit. Some ideas can be found at "the stronghold" on the web among other sites. You can create your own element types like a flying behemoth if you so chose (not every big creature with wings should act like a dragon) and its not to difficult to get the point value right even if you break them down into half point differences in some cases. And then you can add elites and inferiors. Its alot of fun I tell ya.

GrenGuard18 Nov 2004 12:54 p.m. PST

I have never played FR, but I love HOTT. What I like the most is the fact that you can take just about any army, from any period, using any basing system, and convert them over to HOTT and have a very playable game. I have played HOTT scenarios with the usual orcs and elves, but I also take out my Romans and use HOTT. I have recently taken a bunch of old VOID figures and converted them over to HOTT. I am trying to convince someone with some excess WWII stuff to turn out a HOTT army. One scenario I did that worked out very good was Black Hawk Down. I only had to make one small change in the rules, which really wasn't a rules change so much as terrain designation, and the game went wonderfully. The somalies put up a hell of a fight, but the airborne units eventually wore them down.

hwarang18 Nov 2004 1:17 p.m. PST

..or armies of arcana!


armies of arcana!

mikeg9918 Nov 2004 1:19 p.m. PST

Armies of Arcana is a much different feel than HOTT and FR3! AoA is a rank and file game system. I personally did not care for AoA the two times I played it.

andrewgr18 Nov 2004 2:36 p.m. PST

Having played a bunch of both HotT and FR!, I will say that it is significantly harder to teach yourself how to play HotT than it is to teach yourself how to play FR!. The newest edition of HotT is *much* better written than the original, but still suffers from unnecessary terseness and awkward phrasing in places. However, if you subscribe to the HotT yahoo group, you will find a bunch of friendly folks who can talk you through any confusion.

It is my opinion that HotT is a much more balanced game than FR!. Of the groups that I know of that play FR!, most of them have house rules that limit the composition of armies in various ways that aren't specified in the rules, in order to deal with cheesy armies that people have come up with. In HotT, this isn't necessary: the rules, as written, can't really be cheesed.

On the other hand, FR! has more flavor, most particularly in the magic system; dozens of spells and variable level spell casters, as opposed to HotT, which essentially treats Magicians as artillery.

If given the choice, I would prefer to play HotT, but would enjoy playing FR! as well.

And if you think you might enjoy a game where figures are mounted individually (ala Warhammer) rather than several to a base (like HotT and FR!), you really should check out Armies of Arcana (www.thanesgames.com).

jimbeau18 Nov 2004 2:56 p.m. PST

Try the free demo of For the Masses I think you'll like it!

www.mj12games.com/ftm

jim

jstenz18 Nov 2004 5:52 p.m. PST

Is there a reason you have to choose only one game or the other? It's not that hard to create magnetic bases or whatever to easily transfer figs from one system to another.

Boone Doggle18 Nov 2004 5:57 p.m. PST

Don't forget Warmaster, which is playable with 15mm figures on HOTT basing. The rules are free as well.

rodvik18 Nov 2004 6:19 p.m. PST

URL for Fantasy Rules anyone?

Its generic name is defeating my google fu

thanks

Rod

John Leahy Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Nov 2004 7:45 p.m. PST

Hi. Like Andrew I am an old time Fantasy Rules and HOTT player. I agree with him about balance. Fantasy Rules is relatively easy to cheese out the army lists. Hott is MUCH more balanced. However, that balance comes at a price. It doesn't provide as much variety as FR. The magic in FR is more varied. However, it also tends to be more fiddily and can dominate a game in some situations.

The largest drawback for FR in my opinion is the RIDICULOUS $30.00 price tag for a PDF. Chipco knows it's an issue yet they have done zero to address that problem long term. This screws over the growth of the rules since precious few folks are going to pay 30 bucks for a file. There have also been ongoing complaints about problems with the file and the editing. The had a one month 1/2 price sale on the rules after many of us have complained to them on the Yahoo group and here at TMP. But that SHOULD have been the real price )if not cheaper). Chipco has either ignored reality or gotten some terrible advice. Nobody is playing the rules around here (we used to have a group of about a dozen). I LOVED the second edition and its earlier incarnations. But Chipco has totally dropped the ball on 3rd with the pricing. I blame Saber's Edge a little for this, too. Paul should know better. Sales of the new rules were almost non-existant after the initial release. They came back to life during the sale. But it's same ol, same ol now. The yearly Chipco FR tourney at Origins was cancelled by the organizer due to a lack of interest and players this year. It had been a regular gig for several years before 3rd edition was released. The yahoo group for the 6 months after the rules were relaesed averaged about 6 posts a month. I brought that to their attention and stirred things up a little but discussion still remains quite limited. The rules simply aren't taking the world by storm. Too bad. They ARE good.


I know I sound bitter. I am. The folks involved in this are truly good guys and I do love their rules. But there poor decision making has effectively killed the rules in my area and in many others. It'll be a COLD day before anyone around here will pay 30 bucks for a PDF. That is more than either Hott or Warmaster was priced IN PRINT!

So we now have about a dozen players starting a HOTT campaign and some others playing Warmaster. FR isn't even talked about. I thin that sums it up.

Thanks,

John

Personal logo BigRedBat Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Nov 2004 4:09 a.m. PST

Once you've played a few games of HOTT, you find you can play a couple of games in an evening, and rarely need to open the rule book. A great system!

TwoGunBob19 Nov 2004 5:51 a.m. PST

Thanks for the responses. I'll will be checking out For the Masses. I do already own Armies of Arcana and as far as individual based RaF/Skirmish basing it appears tops. I already endorse AoA whole heartedly. Everyone has guided my purchases well over the next few weeks and I thank everyone for their opinions and reviews.

krieghund19 Nov 2004 9:59 a.m. PST

Hott makes for a quick and fun game using just about any minis you care to mention.

However, it could do with a plain English translation and an increase in the 25mm base sizes (which I belive, in some cases were reduced for vol.2).

It plays really well with 6mm armies mounted on 25mm bases.
All of my 6mm come from Irregular and won't fit on 15mm bases.

Never played FR, and it's unlikely I will do at £30 a set.

Hundvig Fezian19 Nov 2004 6:05 p.m. PST

rodvik:

http://www.sabersedge.com/chipco/

If you use "chipco fantasy rules" for a search, you'll also find most of the various fan sites for the game.

Rich

rodvik19 Nov 2004 7:24 p.m. PST

Thanks Rich!

Chalfant20 Nov 2004 7:19 a.m. PST

I personally liked FR2! Though you can "cheese" lists pretty awful, the nice thing is there is always a way to defeat everything. ANd if you enforce a few house rules, or stick to historicals, you can moderate it anyway. What I have always liked is that in the game, any unit has potential to kill any other unit. Maybe there is a very small chance, but there is a chance. not too long ago, I watched buggy skirmish infantry defeat not one, but two, of my Carthaginian war elephants... bad dice rolls, sure..,. but that means there is a kind of balance to the system.

Never trust a game system where there are lots of invincible lords or characters, or units that only be defeated on the Third Thursday uunder a full moon... NOT that I am talking about any PARTICULAR game system...

Oh, have a copy of HOTT, don't play it, i like the troop choices for FR better, more detail (I think)... and as both systems are pretty simple to begin with, having a bit more detail makes it feel nicer.

John Leahy Sponsoring Member of TMP20 Nov 2004 11:36 p.m. PST

We just had a large HOTT game at the local store today. Several of us were discussing various big battle rule sets. The majority were of the opinion that Fantasy Rules was probably the best out there (at least 1st and 2nd editions). It still died immediately as a choice due to the 30 dollar choice. Now think about this. there are at least a dozen guys who would be buying a set of rules. Priced at 10 bucks every one would buy a copy. 15 bucks probably 50% would buy. 30 bucks, nobody will buy. There are also about another dozen players in a some nearby cities who are now playing HOTT and some of them were AVID FR players. That's probably at least 150-300+ bucks that Chipco is losing out on sales to us (and possibly much more). I'm sure our situation is not an abnormal one. Say there are only ten other groups like ours in the USA. That's over a 1000 and possibly several thousand dollars in sales they won't be getting due to their price point.

HELLO.............Chipco are you reading this????????? You guys are great folks. But this pricing is killing the game.

John

andrewgr21 Nov 2004 12:03 a.m. PST

I think the concerns about the pricing are silly.


If FR! is clearly superior to other alternatives, then saving $10 or $20 on rules and being stuck with a game that's less fun is a really, really stupid decision. It's taking the "penny wise, pound foolish" adage to an absurd degree.


If, on the other hand, FR! is not clearly superior to the alternatives, then why bother buying it? Why care what they price it at? Just play whatever alternative you think is just as good.


I bought a copy of FR!3 without even intending to play it. I've gotten lots of enjoyment out of Chipco games in the past, and I've gotten many, many questions answered by Curtis and Chip online over the years, and they've incorporated several of my suggestions into the current rules. As far as I'm concerned, $30 for that level of support is a bargain.


I've got $300 worth of paints sitting on my painting table. Another $50 worth of brushes. Several thousand dollars worth of lead miniatures in my closet. $10, $20, $30 for the rules-- what does it matter? If they enable me to maximize the enjoyment that I get out of the thousands of dollars I've spent on this hobby, then they're a bargain. They'd be a bargain at $100 a copy.


If your group really does believe that FR!3 is the best set of rules available, and you avoid buying it because of the price, I think you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. Everyone pitch in $10 and buy 2 copies for your group-- you don't need any more than that. Or just quit being so miserly and everyone suck it up and buy a copy-- buy 2 fewer GW figures this year and you've paid for it.


Just my $.02, but really, I think you're being pretty irrational about this.

1905Adventure21 Nov 2004 12:52 a.m. PST

My order of preference:

1) Armies of Arcana

2) Armies of Arcana (it's get's too top spots)

3) Vis Magica

4) Fantasy Rules!

5) Hordes of the Things

Price is definitely a big issue for FR!. Even with the comparison given above to what is spent on other rules, there is still the issue of whether or not it is a good value in of itself. It is currently not. These rules sets are close enough in quality to make it that the price difference does matter and is not a matter of "penny wise, pound foolish" or "cutting off your nose to spite your face."

Out of principle I will not buy a PDF that costs as much or more than a printed rules set expressly because I do not want to encourage such pricing behaviour. Chipco would likely do much better reducing their prices and broadening their downloading base with such places as RPGNow.com and the like.

The rapid decline in the popularity and interest in FR! after the high price was decided upon is probably indicative that many people feel the same way. Either the difference in quality is such that they don't feel it's worth paying extra, there's a lack of percieved quality compared to the cost of other printed rules sets or they don't want encourage such practices amoung game produces by purchasing the game.

1905Adventure21 Nov 2004 1:01 a.m. PST

"""Several thousand dollars worth of lead miniatures in my closet. $10, $20, $30 for the rules-- what does it matter? If they enable me to maximize the enjoyment that I get out of the thousands of dollars I've spent on this hobby, then they're a bargain. They'd be a bargain at $100 a copy."""

Not everyone spends that much on their hobby. I don't have several thousand worth of miniatures in my closet. Not even several hundred. I may be into this hobby less than others as far as a financial footprint is concerned, so $30 is a large portion of my monthly miniature related purchases. I suppose if I really wanted to I could spend a couple hundred a month on minis and whatnot so that $30 would seem like a small purchase compared to the massive amounts of lead I have sitting in my closet, but that would be stupid.

Actually, I think spending such a large amount on miniatures that paying $30 for a product that can be infinitely reproduced for next to no cost and that I have to print myself seems like a good value would be cutting off my nose to spite my face. If somethings seems like a bad deal, I just need to spend enough on other things to make it seem like a small amount! Then I can accuse other people who complain about the bad deal of being irrational. LOL!

John Leahy Sponsoring Member of TMP21 Nov 2004 2:33 p.m. PST

I think that Nathan has done a solid job of explaining why Andrew's opinion is a definite minority in the marketplace. Sales of FRS have been pretty nonexistant except at first and during the one month half off sale. So, I think that most folks share my thinking and Nathans. Competing products that are in hardcopy form cost anywhere from the same to a third of the price of a file. If I bought a copy at that price I am encouraging both Chipco and other companies to possibly either retain or adopt this sales model. That would be a BAD thing for the hobby as a whiole, Andrew. I frankly don't see how you can argue with that. Would you have liked paying the same price for 'For the Masses' and every other set of rules you buy as a download from here on out? That is what you are encouraging. I think that is being 'IRRATIONAL'. You are being an enabler in this situation.

FR3 was a poor quality product when first issued. It still has some ongoing issues. If YOU want to dump your money into sets that you won't ever play at a premium price it's your choice. However, to expect that the rest of us will happily follow your model is ludicrous at the least and damn foolish at the best. FR3 and this pricing have effectively killed the rules as an actively played set. Look at the traffic on the Yahoo group. Nobody is playing them (to the same anything close to the same degree as before). The AWESOME FR Annex supporting FR2 has been yanked by that author due to his lack of interest in supporting 3rd. So, this also kills interest in 2nd. The traditional Origins tourney was cancelled by the organizer due to a lack of interest from players in 3rd edition (which had been running for almost a decade, IIRC). Many of us like Fantasy Rules and Chipco. But this has been a polarizing and destructive decision made by them. It has split those who like FR into 2nd edition and 3rd edition players and those who no longer care. You have said you won't be playing the rules. I would like to. That is why I am so passionate about this. Unless something is done to reverse this terrible decision the rules will be dead within a year or less.

That serves no one.

John

chipco121 Nov 2004 6:22 p.m. PST

Ok, guys,

Once again I need to make some things clear.
First, Curtis and I have been very happy with the sales of FR3. Lack of dicsussion on newsgroups does not indicate lack of play. The pdf format has gained us many players in South Africa, Italy, Brazil, and the like who would not have been able to get the rules before, or who would not have bought them due to shipping costs and delays.
Second, we do listen. We ran a promo for all those teeming millions waiting to buy at the lower price and some did, but not nearly enough to get us to change what has so far been quite successful. Based on the promo, I am very unconvinced that our sales would be any higher at the lower price point - and that is based on data which no-one on this group has access to. I am also working on something else yet to be released that will hopefully be what many have been looking for. But it does take time.
We charge a premium price for FR3 because we think it's a premium game, and so far many folks have agreed.
Finally, the price is set to make it worth our effort. I talked to Frank Chadwick when he was selling all his games. In his opinion, no rules supplier can be successful without also being a fig seller. Chipco lives because it is a boutique supplier, not a mainstream one, and can thus survive as a labor of love. If this is polarizing, it is because some have made it so. If you think it sets a bad precedent for those who toil to give you good stuff to make a buck, so be it.
In conclusion, to all those silent folks who've had fun with FR in all its incarnations - thanks again!

Splintered Light Miniatures Sponsoring Member of TMP22 Nov 2004 6:42 a.m. PST

I don't want to get embroiled in the whole $30 for a PDF argument except to say this: I got the FR3! rules the first day for the initial cost and have really enjoyed them. I have extra copies I printed out and have been able to loan them to people to read over to get them excited in the game. This past weekend I had 9 people playing a massive game and all had a good time.

As far as cheesing out armies: while it can be done and while I may be spoiled in the guys I game with, everyone I have played has built balanced armies. Also, there are a lot of balances out there to disrupt overly cheesy armies.

John Leahy Sponsoring Member of TMP22 Nov 2004 11:10 a.m. PST

Sorry Chipco. Not having the 'Origins' tourney DOES indicate a lack of interest. Simply compare the traffic of the yahoo group now vs a year or more ago. For the first 6 months after the rules were released traffic was minimal. So, either folks decided to just stop posting or aren't playing. Many long time fans of FR have chimed in with the same concerns I and others have posted. Even the guy who hosted the FR Annex which was such a huge asset to the support of the rules.

With all due respect to Frank Chadwick I believe that Ed at Two Hour Wargames would disprove his speculation. He also is a rules producer. Dan at Majestic 12 games is as well. Both produce quality rules at fair prices. So, I respectfully suggest your model is not the norm.

I can get a few of us together and split the 30 dollar fee and then give away the rules to everyone in our group. But that is wrong. Hott, Armies of Arcana, Ares, Warmaster and several other hardcopy rule sets are ALL cheaper than your PDF. How can you not see this as an issue? The price simply IS ridiculous. The fact that some of the most faithful were willing to pay 30 bucks is not indicative of whether the price is a fair one. You guys have long shown yourselves to be good guys. Everyone respects that. Perhaps that is part of the reason why so many folks have balked at this pricing issue both here and at the Yahoo group. It simply is so out of character with your previous history. We really do like you guys. But you are WAAAAAAAAY out in left field on this one. Put out a hardcopy version (using Print on Demand technology which would cost you ZERO dollars of your own up front) at 30 bucks and I would likely buy it. But a file? Not a chance.

Respectfully,

John

John Leahy Sponsoring Member of TMP22 Nov 2004 11:14 a.m. PST

I forgot to mention that both Two Hour Wargames and Majestic 12 provide both hardcopy AND PDF versions. Both offer their PDF's at a reduced rate from their hardcopy versions. I could list several other companies that do the same. So, again I suggest that the Chipco model is neither a niche one nor one that is emulated by any other companies out there (for good reasons).

Thanks,

John

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