|GuruDave||30 Jan 2007 8:42 a.m. PST|
I have been playing with the idea of using WRG DBx/HOTT rules for WW2, using the conversions posted by Humberside Wargames Society and others.
This sounds like a fun diversion, and 15 miniatures based for FOW work very well.
One major question I have, however, is how ranged combat works. Close combat in DBx/HOTT requires stands to be in base-to-base contact, and distance shooting is resolved in a seperate phase. So, including ranges for infantry, armor, etc. (which are converted to blades, auxilia, riders, etc.) begs the question -- how is "close combat" resolved from a distance?
|mmessenger||30 Jan 2007 9:03 a.m. PST|
Ranged combat is resolved in the same fashion as close combat. Both sides roll a die, modify it by element type and situation (terrain, overlaps, etc.) and apply the totals to the CRT.
|GuruDave||30 Jan 2007 9:06 a.m. PST|
What is the field of fire? 360? Any unit to the front? Same rules as distance shooting?
|79thPA ||30 Jan 2007 10:37 a.m. PST|
Funny, I was looking at those rules a couple of days ago and thinking about giving them a try. I would guess that the attacker's combat number is the same whether conducting ranged fire or in base-to-base contact.
|No Name 3||30 Jan 2007 10:59 a.m. PST|
GuruDave asked "What is the field of fire? 360? Any unit to the front? Same rules as distance shooting?"
For shooters and artillery the targets have to be in front, in range, in clear line of sight and within an area starting one base width on either side of what is shooting. Version 2 of Hordes of the Things has good diagrams near the back, including one for distance shooting.
The anti-aircraft guns (graded as magicians) work slightly differently. They can "shoot" ("bespell" in the rules) within 360 degrees. They don't need a clear line of sight but some types of terrain (and some types of element that are not shown on the list on your link) will make them less effective.
Good luck. Using HotT for 1st or 2nd World War is something that I have considered. I have played HotT with 18th Century armies and the rules did surprisingly well.
|Jay Arnold||30 Jan 2007 11:06 a.m. PST|
Artillery in DBA is limited to one base width, straight forward. No wheeling and shooting same turn.
Bows and other hand missile weapons are three base widths straight forward and you may move (IIRC) and shoot in the same turn.
Combat numbers are the same. The shooter has no ill effects for losing a ranged combat roll.
|Jay Arnold||30 Jan 2007 11:08 a.m. PST|
Oh, I should also mention that I may be wrong as I am unaware of the differences between DBA and HOTT.
|GuruDave||30 Jan 2007 11:22 a.m. PST|
>The shooter has no ill effects for losing a ranged combat roll.
This is a major departure from DBx/HOTT, no? For years I played these rules incorrectly, only assessing combat results on the "defender" (units belonging to the player whose bound it was not) when the "attacker" (player whose bound it is) score a modified roll greater than the defender, and considering any other roll (defender > attacker) as a "draw" with no penalty to the attacker.
Now I understand that close combat (base-to-base contact) is mandatory and combat results are assessed to either side, depending on the die roll results.
If the shooter has no ill effects for losing a ranged combat roll, what about if the range is zero (either because the stands just happen to close or the range is 0", as in the case of SMG infantry)?
| Bobgnar ||30 Jan 2007 11:35 a.m. PST|
Artillery and bows/shooters are the same in HOTT and DBA. Both shoot outward into a rectangle equal to the width of three bases, with the center being the shooting element. There are subtle differences.
HOTT is much better for a modern game, not DBA. HOTT has flying things. The trick is to convert all of the HOTT fantasy types into the modern troop type. I did this for the Great War.
Magicians were used to call in artillery barages. French Infanty acted like Hordes, Stormtroopers used Warband rules, US marines were Beasts (devil dogs), fighters were flyers, machine guns were shooters, various infantry types were spears and blades (there shooting was done only close up, no range), behemoths were tanks, knights were armored cars, etc. The same can be done for WW2. This is not a FOW type of game, but one of high level strategic maneauver. Think of elements as regiments or higher level entities.
The basic game is done with 24points per side but this will yield only 10-15 units. Consider doing a giant game with many more points so you can have many troops on the table.
Here are some pics of my great war game. These are 15mm figures mounted on 25mm scale bases. Yellow puff is gas.
| Bobgnar ||30 Jan 2007 11:39 a.m. PST|
footnote, to reply to GuruDave's last question.
If elements shoot at each other, then either can have a bad result. If a shooter shoots at a non-shooting element then no ill effect to shooter.
If a shooting element is at zero range, then it has been engaged in close combat (touching) and those rules apply.
|GuruDave||30 Jan 2007 12:16 p.m. PST|
Sorry for being thick, but I'm not sure I understand still.
During the close combat phase, if it is my bound, my stand can attack any enemy stand within a three-base width to its front that is within range and not blocked. Each player rolls a die making the usual adjustments for troop type and other. If I roll less than the other player, then I ignore the result? Does the other player's stand immediately shoot back, as in distance shooting?
Then, during the normal distance shooting phase, can any ranged unit fire again, or only artillery?
|GuruDave||30 Jan 2007 1:44 p.m. PST|
Bob -- very cool pics, BTW. Looks like Plan 1919 in action!
|Tommiatkins||30 Jan 2007 2:52 p.m. PST|
Similar to Schwerepunkt in some ways, a DBx style divisional game.
I'm gonna give that a try tommorow with Anzio as a scenario.
|Chris PzTp||30 Jan 2007 6:01 p.m. PST|
Bob, looks like you put on a great game!
|Good Bye||30 Jan 2007 6:09 p.m. PST|
Thanks 'Bob and his dog'! I have been thinking of trying HOTT with 6mm scifi figures, and your WW1 conversion guide should be a big help.
|mmessenger||30 Jan 2007 11:06 p.m. PST|
Actually, someone has already take a swing at a scifi version of HOTT.
|Tony Barr||31 Jan 2007 1:29 a.m. PST|
In fact you can see the whole lot of DBx related stuff on my page at link :)
|freewargamesrules||31 Jan 2007 6:02 a.m. PST|
|GuruDave||31 Jan 2007 6:06 a.m. PST|
I am still foggy on the sequence of play for ranged combat. In the basic HOTT rules, knights, for example, cannot shoot but only fight in close combat. In many of the conversions (WW2 for example) armor is treated as Knights but have a range (e.g. 4") which requires a significant difference in the sequence of play.
The major difference from the basic game close combat rules is that bad results from ranged combat are not applied to the stand of the player whose bound it is, or am I mistaken? Does the stand that is shot at immediately get a chance to fire back, or must it wait until that player's bound?
Also, if I do opt to make base-to-base contact with enemy stands during my movement, do any units get a bonus from being in close contact to the enemy? Seems like infanty ought to at least get a bonus against vehicles in rough going (maybe the rules already model that with combat results).
I understand that units that in the basic game can participate in distance shooting (e.g. artillery and bows) still shoot seperately.
|GuruDave||31 Jan 2007 6:08 a.m. PST|
If I understand ranged combat correctly, it requires TWO opposed rolls for combat between stands which are shooting at each other at range, rather than ONE opposed roll as in the basic rules for close combat. That seems to be a major change to the pace of the game -- doubling the amount of die rolling.
|Martin Rapier||31 Jan 2007 8:27 a.m. PST|
"..If I understand ranged combat correctly,.."
No, you've got it wrong. All combat is resolved by a single opposed dice throw. The side which loses (ie modified result is less thaqn other side) has bad stuff happen to it.
IF, and only if, a ranged unit shoots at a unit without any ranged capability, it suffers no bad stuff if it loses (as obviously that target hasn't got the range to fire back).
There are some variants where units take in turn to shoot at each other e.g. De Bellis Navalis, but in standard DBA/HoTT the results for both parties are resolved at the same time by the same opposed dice throw.
|GuruDave||31 Jan 2007 9:49 a.m. PST|
Martin -- OK, great, that makes more sense.
So, for example, if two stands are 3" from each other, and one has a range of 2" and one has a range of 4", then the stand with a range of 2" would suffer the bad effects of combat but the stand with the range of 4" would not?
|John Leahy ||31 Jan 2007 10:01 a.m. PST|
The sci-fi variant I did was based entirely on what Bruce had already done for WW2 and Modern. I just thought it seemed like a perfect fit for sci-fi.
|GuruDave||31 Jan 2007 11:23 a.m. PST|
DBA is definitely a "game" rather than a "simulation" and not for everyone, particularly those who want realism and historical accuracy. However, it is great fun to pit armies of various consistencies against one another, whether they be modeled after ancients, moderns, fantasy, or whatever period turns your crank.
The simplicity and low figure count of DBA lowers the investment to the point where many more obscure armies and historical periods can be introduced into play. I doubt I would spend hundreds of dollars and hours collecting, painting, and playing Aztecs, Sea Peoples, or ancient Welsh, but I am willing to spend a weekend or so and $20 USD on a DBA army or two of the same.
And, if you already have a collection of WW2, modern, or whatever in 15mm, chances are they are readily adaptable to DBA as-is.
|BoltAction||01 Feb 2007 3:56 p.m. PST|
do you have a link to your WWI version of HoTT??
|Maimed||03 Feb 2007 5:37 a.m. PST|
I ist HOTT/DBx but, Blitzkrieg Commander is a good fast game that brings in all the armies in one plain English book, short rules, lots of action.
Take a look you my really like it :)