Help support TMP


"DBx/HOTT/MA Unit Creation System?" Topic


De Bellis Antiquitatis (DBA)

22 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the De Bellis Antiquitatis (DBA) Rules Board

Back to the De Bellis Magistrorum Militum Rules Board

Back to the De Bellis Multitudinis Rules Board

Back to the Horse, Foot and Guns Rules Board

Back to the De Bellis Velitum Rules Board

Back to the De Bellis Renationis Rules Board

Back to the Mighty Armies: Fantasy Rules Board

Back to the Hordes of the Things Rules Board


Action Log

07 Jan 2017 11:49 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Changed title from "DBx/HOTT/MA Unit Creation System" to "DBx/HOTT/MA Unit Creation System?"
  • Crossposted to Mighty Armies: Fantasy board
  • Crossposted to De Bellis Renationis board
  • Crossposted to De Bellis Velitum board
  • Crossposted to Horse, Foot and Guns board
  • Crossposted to De Bellis Multitudinis board
  • Crossposted to De Bellis Magistrorum Militum board
  • Crossposted to De Bellis Antiquitatis (DBA) board

Areas of Interest

Fantasy
Ancients
Medieval
Renaissance
18th Century
Napoleonic
American Civil War
19th Century
World War One
Science Fiction

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Ruleset


Current Poll


464 hits since 8 Jan 2017
©1994-2020 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Toy Soldier Green03 Mar 2008 2:00 p.m. PST

Anyone ever invent their own unit creation rules for any of the DBx/HOTT games, or Mighty Armies? I love Armies of Arcana for this very ability but I am at heart a DBx player!

Grizwald03 Mar 2008 2:08 p.m. PST

Eh? There are no "units" in HOTT or DBA, just a 12 element army in DBA or a 24AP army in HOTT. Or am I missing something?

Brandlin03 Mar 2008 2:10 p.m. PST

i think unit=element in this sense.

Toy Soldier Green03 Mar 2008 2:14 p.m. PST

you missed something. Example Blades are an unit or element type. I want to create my own units or elements. Another example would be Shooters in HOTT. I want Sh and Arcane Archers! Just not sure on how the point system would work that out.

Toy Soldier Green03 Mar 2008 2:16 p.m. PST

I thought I had worded that original post "gooder" enough.

Toy Soldier Green03 Mar 2008 3:37 p.m. PST

I guess a start would be to take the basic hordes element type as a base for point construction…

Grizwald03 Mar 2008 4:00 p.m. PST

Sorry, I still don't get what you are asking. What element types do you consider are missing from HOTT?

So an "Arcane Archer" is a sort of archer / magic user hybrid? Well you could either class them as Shooters, since HOTT Shooters "are much deadlier than historical archers" or you could class them as Heroes. I really don't think they could count as Magicians, since their magic seems more do to with magically enhancing weapons that straight magic. I also can't see the need to create another element type, they would either be Shooters or Heroes depending on how you read their abilities in comparision to the descriptions in the rulebook.

"I thought I had worded that original post "gooder" enough."

Obviously not.

"I guess a start would be to take the basic hordes element type as a base for point construction…"

A Hordes element is worth 1AP. An Aerial Hero is worth 6AP and the only other possible values are 2, 3 and 4. So you hardly need a basis for "point construction".

Based on your comments, your question appears to be totally irrelevant to DBA, since it does not have points or APs.

Personal logo The Beast Rampant Supporting Member of TMP03 Mar 2008 4:53 p.m. PST

"Sorry, I still don't get what you are asking. What element types do you consider are missing from HOTT?"

Actually, I always felt psiloi shouldn't have been left out of HoTT. You need a bracket for skirmishing plinkers; goblin shortbows and dwarf arquebussiers should never be lumped together!

Toy Soldier Green03 Mar 2008 5:08 p.m. PST

"I also can't see the need to create another element type…"

well good for you but I would like to do just that. make my HOTT game a bit more involved.

"Obviously not"

worked for the other posters.

"Based on your comments, your question appears to be totally irrelevant…"

it's irrelevant to you. why did you bother to post when all you do is critique what I've wrote. I see why your stifle count is so high.

kokigami03 Mar 2008 11:56 p.m. PST

I think I see what you are trying to do. Arcane Archers..
take archers, give em an extra 50 paces of range, and fight as blades, maybe… Can't just use heroes to represent em, cause Heroes don't have any "range". Don't personally think it is a good idea though. seems like you would quickly imbalance it.


But if you want to try it..

define your new type.
make a list of traits it shares with any existing HOTT type.
Choose the highest priced one. Add one half the value of all remaining types with shared traits. add one point for any performance enhancement that is less than 150% of the original. Prohibit enhancement greater than 150%. Subtract one point for any performance reduction. always round up.

Example
Mounted arcane archers
Want em to be like riders with shooters ranged fire at 300 Paces (150 % 0f normal shooters)


Flyers, knights, riders, beasts, blades, spears, shooters or warband elements cost 2 AP.

So riders at 2 + 1 for half the value of shooters plus 1 for the range bonus. They cost 4. Treat as riders in close combat and shooters at range. If they prove too popular, increase the price.

Stewbags04 Mar 2008 12:46 a.m. PST

Dude, just make them up. As long as it is balanced and works it does not really matter. If you are playing the same people regularly then as long as everyone is happy, cool.

I am with kokigami on working out the points.

Some things I am thinking on for hott when playing with my son:

goat riders unhindered on rough hills
spider riders unhindered in woods
crocodile riders unhindered by rivers
snakes unhindered by rough ground
some kind of war wagon equivalent for steam tanks, etc
some kind of psoli equivalent
some kind of Lh equivalent
Difference between herbivorious (stampy), carnivorious (munchy) and "grouped big guy" behemoth units
racial traits: orks tough but cowardly, elves good archers, dwarves slow but tough, lizardmen tough but must follow up (bloodlust), hobbits weak but stronger if supported, maybe able to count rough ground as defendable cover?

As long as everyone agrees before the game what does it matter?

Hott is at heart a hot-rodded version of DBx, just look at how many custom versions of DBx for SYW, Napps, WW1, etc. It is a good and flexible basic system, go nuts and enjoy yourself…

Grizwald04 Mar 2008 2:24 a.m. PST

"well good for you but I would like to do just that. make my HOTT game a bit more involved."

So why have you not answered my question about what elements you want to add to HOTT?

"it's irrelevant to you. why did you bother to post when all you do is critique what I've wrote."

LOL! Please don't take other people's comments out of context. I said it was irrelevant to DBA – which you have not denied. As to why I posted, I was trying to understand your question when the games you referred to do not have units. It was nice of Brandlin to explain what you couldn't.

The Beast Rabban makes a good point that Psiloi are missing from HOTT.

It is interesting that in all the years HOTT has been available, few if any players have felt the need to add more element types. Just look at the HOTT Stronghold at link where there are over 200 armies listed, none of which use any non-standard element types.

Of course you are perfectly entitled to do so if you wish and Kokigami has made some practical suggestions. Beware of the danger of minimaxing though. If you add a new element type along the lines suggested by Kokigami then you will need to extensively playtest to ensure that the new type doesn't unbalance the game.

Grizwald04 Mar 2008 2:31 a.m. PST

BTW, your stifle count is not so hot (excuse the pun). You have a ratio of 196 posts per stifle. John the OFM has a ratio of 526 posts per stifle.

Grizwald04 Mar 2008 2:37 a.m. PST

"goat riders unhindered on rough hills
spider riders unhindered in woods
crocodile riders unhindered by rivers
snakes unhindered by rough ground"

Some good ideas there. These are not so much new element types as existing types with slightly different movement capabilities. Probably not significant enough to merit a difference in APs.

"some kind of war wagon equivalent for steam tanks, etc"

Stream tanks etc are usually treated as Behemoths.

"some kind of psoli equivalent
some kind of Lh equivalent"

Yep. These are definitely missing from HOTT. Simple to add though by using the existing capabilities from DBA and costing them at 2AP each.

Splintered Light Miniatures Sponsoring Member of TMP04 Mar 2008 9:36 a.m. PST

wargamer1972,
You might be interested in checking out Chipco's Fantasy Rules! It also has a great system for unit creation.

Grizwald04 Mar 2008 2:37 p.m. PST

"Stream tanks"

?? They're the amphibious ones!! (I'll get me coat …)

Toy Soldier Green04 Mar 2008 6:07 p.m. PST

"It is interesting that in all the years HOTT has been available, few if any players have felt the need to add more element types."

You have never heard of Great Hordes the DBA/HOTT mod. See the Tulsa Area Wargamers Confederation Group on yahoo for further info.

Stewbags05 Mar 2008 12:19 a.m. PST

"some kind of war wagon equivalent for steam tanks, etc"

Steam tanks etc are usually treated as Behemoths.

Yeah but i think warwagon style rules would suit better imho.

My son is currently a GW head booh hiss ;o) and i think that the slightly "vanilla" approach for hott might put him off. I actually realy like the idea of slight variations to make each unit very slightly different so there is a little more to wrap your head around.

Toy Soldier Green05 Mar 2008 5:43 a.m. PST

I agree Stewbags. I really enjoy the fantasy setting of warhammer but don't much care for the rules. The Great Hordes mod adds extra elements and changes the point costs for most but does not elaborate on the point system used to create them.

Grizwald05 Mar 2008 6:16 a.m. PST

"You have never heard of Great Hordes the DBA/HOTT mod. "

Correct, I haven't. Which is not surprising because:
1. I do not live in the US, so would have no interest in the Tulsa Area Wargames Confederation.
2. AFAIAK, the TAWC have made on attempt to publicise the existence of this mod. Hiding it in a members only group is not good publicity!
3. The mod is not mentioned on the freewargamesrules site or the HOTT Stronghold.

Personal logo Rebel Minis Sponsoring Member of TMP05 Mar 2008 8:37 a.m. PST

Wargamer1972,

I'll chime in here with Mighty Armies and a little about what the new "unit creation" will look like.
Basically right now in MA, every unit has a Value(AP or Army Point). What is currently been released are pre-built armies and the AP has been worked out for you. To give you an idea, a Barbarian Archer has an AP of 4. This pre-built Archer , for this AP of 4 has the abilites: Moblie, Scout and Shooting II.

In the new Rules, with unit creation, you will be able to create this archer unit however you see fit. You will be given a Base Stat for Archers and from that, make your changes. You will be able to make them Common, Veteran or Seasoned Troops(affecting the fighting Score) and you can add abilities such as Scout, Fearless, Long Range, ect..

All of these things effect your AP, so there should be no case where 2 armies are built exactly the same…

Also, the new rules will let you use any minis you own. You will not be limited to using just the MA line of miniatures(although it would be nice :) )


RebelMike
Rebelminis.com

Toy Soldier Green05 Mar 2008 11:50 a.m. PST

Thanks RebelMike,

I already have set aside the funds I need for a Goblin Bat Clan just as soon as those new unit creation rules are out!

What you've wrote is exactly what I've been on about. I was just hoping maybe someone or a club had developed a similiar system for HOTT.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.