| Editor in Chief Bill ||28 Sep 2016 3:14 p.m. PST|
On a scale of 0 to 10, what would be your level of interest in a Kickstarter to produce a boxed DBA starter set, including matched 28mmm armies?
|Calico Bill||28 Sep 2016 3:23 p.m. PST|
0. I have dozens of 15mm DBA armies already that I'm very pleased with.
|Toronto48 ||28 Sep 2016 3:35 p.m. PST|
if zero is no interest I would be a minus 10
| 20thmaine ||28 Sep 2016 3:47 p.m. PST|
Do it in 20mm – set of rules, two HaT DBA army boxes, about £15.00 GBP
Works for me.
28mm – no, thanks.
|The Beast Rampant||28 Sep 2016 3:52 p.m. PST|
None. I prefer DBA in 15mm, unless I picked the army *specifically* because of the minis themselves.
Even still, I build from carefully and obsessively chosen packs, which I suppose, on some level, is part of the fun(?). All probably because my first and only package army from Essex was assembled by a monkey from minis he found on the floor.
|John Armatys||28 Sep 2016 4:14 p.m. PST|
If I wanted to do DBA in 28mm I could acquire the rules and I suspect all the figures I needed from existing ranges, have everything delivered within a few days and not take any risk from a kickstarter.
|Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut||28 Sep 2016 4:21 p.m. PST|
Do we get to pick the armies? I am interested in New Kingdom Egypians vs. Libyans, Asiatic Greeks or Macedonians against Skythians, Mound Builders vs. Dog Peoples, and other less popular match ups.
| Extra Crispy ||28 Sep 2016 4:25 p.m. PST|
I think the OP is suggesting a fixed Romans/Celts type boxed set.
Would it include everything I need? Rules, dice, some terrain, a game mat? Bases?
| 20thmaine ||28 Sep 2016 4:28 p.m. PST|
Don't get me wrong – what Extra Crispy describes sounds like a great thing to produce, what a neat introduction to ancient wargaming as a period that would be.
It's just not for this stick-in-the-mud and his 20mm collection!
|Winston Smith ||28 Sep 2016 4:31 p.m. PST|
0. I've sold off all my Ancients and don't like DBA.
Other than that…..
|Sundance||28 Sep 2016 4:56 p.m. PST|
|Lucius||28 Sep 2016 5:28 p.m. PST|
0. I don't see a market for this at all.
Anyone who likes the style/layout of DBA is older, and already has armies.
Anyone younger will get rules that are written to appeal to their generation.
| Dale Hurtt ||28 Sep 2016 6:13 p.m. PST|
0. DBA is played in 15mm in most places I know, which means you are subjecting the newbies to putting effort into what most people are NOT doing in DBA.
|Ivan DBA||28 Sep 2016 6:24 p.m. PST|
Somewhere between 3 and 9, depending on the armies chosen and the quality of the sculpts. Like others, all my DBA armies are 15mm, but I would give 28mm a look.
|79thPA ||28 Sep 2016 6:44 p.m. PST|
While I have some interest in DBA in 25mm, I don't know if I would be too keen on a KS since I can probably already buy everything I need as it is.
|jwebster||28 Sep 2016 8:27 p.m. PST|
This is tricky. There are an awful lot of armies – I'm not sure how many customers there would be for one particular set.
You would have to offer something extra. I'm not talking about kickstarter extras but fundamentally. It has to be better than buying figures individually.Some ideas off the top of my head
- take an existing range that is packaged inconveniently and sell exactly the models for DBA – saving money
- unique figures not available somewhere else
The example I would use is the Gripping Beast Viking and Saxon warbands – exactly what you need for saga in plastics
Honestly I only know two people (myself included) who are interested in DBA in 28mm. I already have lead for 3 armies and I'm a slow painter
The appeal of 28mm for me is to paint in great detail. If you don't like painting much, 15mm is a better deal anyway
|Lazyworker||28 Sep 2016 8:43 p.m. PST|
I have some 28mm Roman DBA stands and they look kind of sad compared to the stands for my 28mm Greater Greece Impetus Army. With DBA being around since the '90s, you have a hard sell on your hands with all those 15mm army packs floating around.
|Vigilant||29 Sep 2016 2:58 a.m. PST|
Don't like DBA so I'd say no. Plenty of quality 28s out there and a variety of rules so I can't see this being a goer.
|Father Grigori||29 Sep 2016 3:26 a.m. PST|
0. DBA doesn't really suit 25/28/30mm figures. The ranges and moves just look wrong for the scale. It suits 15mm ok, but for visual appeal IMHO it shines with 6mm.
|langobard ||29 Sep 2016 4:29 a.m. PST|
I have a number of problems with this: first, like many others here I play DBA in 15mm, and even then I use Impetus basing so need larger armies.
Second, and more to the point in 28mm, I play Hail Caesar, and DBA armies are too small for my interests.
|arthur1815||29 Sep 2016 4:34 a.m. PST|
0 as I agree with Father Grigori.
|Hobhood4||29 Sep 2016 6:24 a.m. PST|
I've always thought this would be a good idea.Something along the lines of the Perry's ACW 'battle in a box'. But you'd need to present the ruleset in a more user friendly fashion in terms of wording and design – yes even version 3.0. Some multi part plastics, chosen to fit the the DBA army make up, with shield tranfers? Or as suggested above, Hat 1.72 boxes. Some 2D printed terrain for for all the variants, a printed gameboard, grass on one side arid on the other. Or what about a rule set with scenics and paper armies like the new Peter Dennis books – EIR, Celts, Germans…a good starter combo
|Terrement ||29 Sep 2016 6:50 a.m. PST|
Never took to DBA, prefer to buy my 28mm figs from a variety of similarly sized companies for a better mixture.
if zero is no interest I would be a minus 10
You need to find that shop with the amp that you can turn up to 11, and just cross-wire it.
|Joes Shop ||29 Sep 2016 7:04 a.m. PST|
| Battle Cry Bill ||29 Sep 2016 8:23 a.m. PST|
The idea of a bundled boxed beginners ancients set offered through Kickstarter is an interesting one. Your feedback here might be a bit stunted as starter sets would appeal more to people getting into the hobby vs. your normal TMP type.
Breaking what you are aksing down it has:
- DBA (a specific rules set)
- 28mm figures (a specific scale)
- undefined opponenets (I would suggest Rome vs. Carthage)
- an undefined price point (under $50 USD?)
Commands & Colors Ancients at $65 USD keeps going out of print. Just helped 2 new players with the rules at Recruits this weekend.
|Wargamer Blue||29 Sep 2016 8:58 a.m. PST|
|Thomas Thomas||29 Sep 2016 9:01 a.m. PST|
Feedback mostly reflects preset attitudes – I don't like DBA etc. I always play in 15mm…
The idea of a starter set is to bring in new people (or get old people to start a new scale).
DBA is an excellent starter rule system as it has great simulation value with very playable mechanics. A rare combo in modern rule sets.
DBA appeared before the wave of high quality plastic figures in 28mm arrived so the combination represents a fresh marketing tool. Avoids market saturation. You want to develop new gamers in a new scale in order to create a market.
Relative size and ground scale is meaningless. Size is scaled down in 15mm and scaled up in 25mm so you get the same ratio (the only way to vary this is to put 15mm figures on 25mm bases). In any case DBA 3.0 has increased range and movement distance (both relative and absolute in the case of shooting) and works great with 28mm.
You could offer several matched sets (DBA was intended for matched sets). HYW French v. English; Rome v. Carthage; Alexander v. Persians; Burgundians v. Swiss etc.
Rule presentation might remain a bit of an issue but this could be worked on (something similar to my Game of Fire and Ice).
|mashrewba ||29 Sep 2016 11:12 a.m. PST|
Top idea if it features Aventine Miniatures.
DBA armies look rubbish in 28mm…
| Bobgnar ||29 Sep 2016 1:43 p.m. PST|
I always wonder why is it that people who have no interest in DBA read this thread let alone leave comments? Anyway back to the original question.
Zero interest to me as I already have multiple copies of DBA and hundreds of figures and 25 mm, 28 mm, 15 mm, 6 mm, and 75 mm.
Contrary to what Father Grigori, and others, say the game works well in all those scales.
My question to the editor who asked you this question is what is the need for a kick starter? The rules already exist, the figures already exist. What is it that a kick starter would do? The question is really: is it worthwhile for somebody to put together a set of DBA rules combined with two prepared armies? Would these be painted already armies? As most people have said much better to do it in 15 mm for a beginner, as less of an investment is needed.
How about doing as command and colors did, present the rules, a fold up board, terrain pieces, and blocks to represent the armies.
Here are some examples of DBA in 25 mm, big battles of course.
| miniMo ||29 Sep 2016 3:47 p.m. PST|
That would be bad since Phil still refuses to acknowledge the reality of 28mm figures, and the largest base sizes in the rules only accomodate 20-25mm figures. Yes, technically the bases can be expanded, but there is no recognised standard for such.
A 15mm or 20mm set would be the only practical options.
|Yesthatphil ||29 Sep 2016 5:11 p.m. PST|
Not my scale but …
I could be tempted if the content was sufficiently interesting (that would exclude a lot of the rent-a-blob quality 28mm guys) – but something unusual and artistic (say Aztecs and Conquistadors … that sort of thing) by a sculptor with an elegant touch a la Tom Meier …
Well, yes, I could see that working out
|Weasel||29 Sep 2016 5:50 p.m. PST|
A negative in 28mm.
In a smaller scale and if it included two armies (as a "battle" set, I might snatch one or two up to have ready.
|Mr Elmo||30 Sep 2016 4:24 a.m. PST|
Would the starter sets include a more readable mini rulebook?
|blacksmith||30 Sep 2016 4:33 p.m. PST|
I've just ordered a couple of 15mm DBA armies to Khurasan. I think 15mm is the perfect scale for DBA.
|jwebster||01 Oct 2016 11:29 a.m. PST|
Incidentally – the Perry Agincourt box has exactly the right number of figures for a Lion Rampant retinue – 24 archers and 12 men at arms
I bought a box because it is a great price for great figures to get exactly what I want No idea when they will get painted
As for kickstarter. If you already have the funding, kickstarting your products shouldn't be necessary. If you couldn't launch the product yourself (given a decent bank balance) then a kickstarter is unlikely to do much more than break even. It's a fantastic tool for small business with little cash but if you wouldn't risk your own money on a product launch, you're unlikely to be happy with kickstarter.
|warhorse||01 Oct 2016 1:08 p.m. PST|
Well, if you just double all base sizes for 28mm, then unit frontage is 8cm, boards are 4' square (like in the local game stores) and 8' x 4' for big battle. Pretty standard in 28mm, and easy-peasy I would think, no?
|Howard 2LK ||01 Oct 2016 2:24 p.m. PST|
NO real interest in 28mm although the figures have more detail.
Just som many armies that 15mm is the most cost effective. I have four armies in 25mm.
| Bobgnar ||01 Oct 2016 8:53 p.m. PST|
Warhorse, you need to double 15mm bases to get 8cm. If you double bases for 28 mm (25 mm) you get 12cm. Principle is well taken, I just wanted to get the details right.
|Father Grigori||02 Oct 2016 2:14 p.m. PST|
@ Bobgnar: I didn't mean that DBA rules don't work with 28mm, just that it doesn't have the look to the game. I agree that the rules work perfectly well, and yes, the big battle , version does look ok. My Bronze Age armies are 20mm plastics for DBA and work fine. But a basic 12 element DBA game in 28mm looks more like a skirmish than a battle, and because of the size of the figures, shooting ranges feel too short.
It's the aesthetics I was commenting on, not the playability of the game (which, for me, is always good, in any scale).
|Skeptic||02 Oct 2016 10:55 p.m. PST|
@Bobgnar: Why not read or reply to this thread? Some people may be curious. Some people are just answering the editor's question. If I were thinking about the feasibility of launching a new product, I would be interested in hearing both positive and negative opinions.
|warhorse||03 Oct 2016 5:01 a.m. PST|
Bobgnar – thought that was pretty clear from the point that 15mm are about half the size of new 28's. I always wondered why DBA gamers spent so much time trying to cram 28's onto 6cm bases… the solution really is quite straightforward. And given that there are hardly any 28mm DBA gamers (as compared to 15mm), you can more easily start a trend in that direction, no?
I wonder if peoples' reluctance to play DBA in 28mm is partly due to the basing…
|mashrewba ||03 Oct 2016 8:18 a.m. PST|
In 28mm it's easier to get the small number of figures that you need as singles.
28mm looks good with Hordes of the Things on 60mm bases as a lot of those elements are meant to be characters etc
28mm DBA for me is bigger bases and/or Big Battles
|Thomas Thomas||03 Oct 2016 1:49 p.m. PST|
For all those 28mm gamers considering DBA3.0 – don't worry much over the 15mm only guys or the basing stuff – come on in the waters fine.
We use 28mm for almost all our DBA (and D3H2) games. We worked with Phil re basing. He now allows 60X45mm mounted bases which are exactly the size that Perry Brothers mounted figures come with. I've mounted 3 per base with no problem. Four foot figures on a 60mm base is a bit tight but makes an impressive shield wall. So far I've been able to get four on a base without to much crowding.
Its also OK to just mount one less figure per base (just tell your opponent). If you use D3H2 (as many 28mm players do) it allows even more basing flexability.
A boxed set would be a great way to bring in new player who may or may not know how to assemble an army. DBA is a great introduction to our hobby – great history and ease of play (and yes I still cling to the old fashioned notion that historical wargames should teach some history).