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"Battle of Burwood, 1461" Topic

De Bellis Renationis

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UnfortunateWound25 Oct 2012 2:01 a.m. PST

A Wars of the Roses battle report using 15mm DBR:


MajorB25 Oct 2012 10:38 a.m. PST

I tried DBR for the WOTR and didn't like it for similar reasons to those you state. The best rules I have found for the period is (perhaps surprisingly?) Hail Caesar.

UnfortunateWound25 Oct 2012 1:45 p.m. PST

I do like Hail Caesar, but I don't have enough stands for a satisfying game of it yet. I'm working on my own rules for the era too – I haven't read this many books since uni!

Yesthatphil26 Oct 2012 2:39 a.m. PST

I have run Bosworth using DBA V3 on a significant number of occasions as a Participation game. It works very well and gives a very plausible reflection of what historian Mike Ingram thinks happened at the battle.

Yes, it is a quick game (so might not have all the layers of detail players might want for a full evening game) but it certainly has a good balance and a good tactical feel.


UnfortunateWound26 Oct 2012 3:51 a.m. PST

So do you run that as three battles of four stands? Or 12E per battle?

Yesthatphil26 Oct 2012 5:20 a.m. PST

Notionally 12 E per side (actually 12 Yorkist, 11 + 1 Tudor) deployed as interpreted by Mike Ingram in his recent book …

So the Yorkist Van under Norfolk is half the army, with Northumberland adding only odd elements as his battle does not commit. There is a significant artillery position and Richard commands the cavarly.

Oxford (vanward) opposes Norfolk with a slender line. The mercenaries (left) and Henry's reserve (centre) deploy separately.*


*Additionally Sir William Stanley's cavalry may be moved by either side on a 6 but will only actually fight for Henry. (His is the +1 in the '11 + 1')

UnfortunateWound26 Oct 2012 9:59 a.m. PST

Interesting, thanks =]

I assume it uses the standard DBA WotR lists?

Yesthatphil26 Oct 2012 11:35 a.m. PST

I assume it uses the standard DBA WotR lists?

I tend to work from actual armies for actual battles.

For Bosworth a bit of extra artillery for the Yorkists and, using V3, I used double based bow for the Yorkists (Norfolk)contrasting the alternating bows and blades of Henry's army (Oxford) …

It gives a good representation of the massed line vs the slender line of the historical battle (V3 gives the double-based bow a combat bonus … )

Likewise, I use a double base of spear instead of a base of pike – I prefer that interpretation and it does away with the anomaly of rear support.

Again V3 stuff that might not make sense in terms of the curent version. I will however publish a full scenario with lists in due course.

In 2.2 you would probably still benefit from giving Richard more guns, of course …

(there was a little bit about Bosworth on Shows North back in June)

Thomas Thomas26 Oct 2012 11:35 a.m. PST

I also recommend DBA 3.0 for both the Hundred Years War and the War of the Roses. These are my primary gaming interests and the new version of DBA does a great job with both.

Previously I had used Hordes of the Things for this period and did not recomend DBA 2.2 for late medieval. Not sure about DBR.


UnfortunateWound28 Oct 2012 12:35 a.m. PST

Thanks guys, very informative! I'll have to get some cavalry painted up and try v3 out.

MajorB28 Oct 2012 12:24 p.m. PST

I'll have to get some cavalry painted up

Other than at Bosworth, very few WOTR battles featured mounted men-at-arms. They mostly fought on foot.

UnfortunateWound30 Oct 2012 9:24 a.m. PST

Yes, I know. But while I enjoy DBA, I find it to be a bit of a back-and-forth without a variety of troop types.

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP01 Nov 2012 10:30 a.m. PST

I have done many WotR games in 25mm with 2.2 DBA giant battles. Now tried DBA 3 Giant Battles, 5 "armies" per side, 5 players on a side. Great fun.
Used new army list. New Fast and Solid types worked well too.

IV/83a Wars of the Roses armies 1455-1485 AD or Tudor army 1486-1515 AD: 1 x General (4Bd or 3Kn), 1 x currours (Cv) or border staves (LH) or unreliable levies (7Hd), 3 x stiffened billmen (4Bd), 6 x archers (3/4Lb), 1 x guns (Art) or Welsh (3Pk) or Irish (3Ax) or men-at-arms (4Bd/3Kn).
Terrain Type: Arable. Aggression: 1. Enemies: IV/16, IV/82a, IV/82b. Allies [1485 only]: IV/83a .

UnfortunateWound02 Nov 2012 12:35 a.m. PST

Thanks for the list Bob. Is DBA3 still available online?

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