"How to beat Knights in DBM" Topic

Hello! So my friend and I scheduled a game of DBM 3.2 next Saturday. He informed me he will be playing Sarmatians. I looked them up, they are irregular knights (F). They cost 9 AP and he can take like 60 stands worth… How the heck does one beat that?

We will be playing 400 points. So he will be spending 57 joints on the command, and assuming all he does next is take Knights (F), he will get another 38 stands of Knights. That almost stretches the entire board!

So my question is, how am I supposed to beat that? I have Early Imperial Romans. I can take up to 32 Blade, so double based that will only be able to counter 16 stands of his knights. My Auxilia will be next to useless against his knights. I just don't see a way to possibly win. I guess in general I don't understand why knights are so broken. They will quick kill any foot I have and have a better dice modifier against any cavalry I could throw at him.

I am just at a loss at what to do. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks DBM community!

Get as much bad going for your foot. The quick kill is only in good going. Max out on light cavalry and keep them in a pack. They quick kill knights. use their mobility to pick off his flanks. Or have them in reserve behind foot in the open, wipe out those that break through. Can't suggest more since I'm a DBA player, haven't looked at DBM in years.

ok, the thing is that all his troops are impetuous. So my suggestion would be to deploy well back, use rough going to channel him into cul-de-sac and then sacrifice a couple of elements into his commands.. the Kn have to follow up, which if he is one deep, will mean he will lose control, and you can then use your superior 3C to pick him off in detail. Another option is to flank march a mounted command, with irregular knights he will find it difficult to respond. Above all you need to make sure it isn't a game where he can simply slam his line into yours. Use artillery to pick him off, stand uphill and deploy two deep (see Arrian). Final advice? As per any DBx game, roll sixes! Good luck.

Bows in rough. Their shooting will break up the knight's formation and they go impetuous. Being fast a few bases might get shot down too.

Artillery, elephant, camel allies, flank March.

While he can max out on Kn, he'll be wise to have some support troops, if he doesn't you will own the jungles and can threaten his flanks as he is channelled through gaps.

DB

Helicopter gunships…

John T

Knights are not 'broken'. In fact Irregulat Kn(F) are a pretty weak troop type, hard to use well. They are impetuous, and useless in rough going, and brittle and vulnerable to shooting. If he fields an army of nothing but Kn(F) just put down lots of bad going, and wait till he loses control of his knights, then slaughter them when they charge into the bushes.

Rabbits are the answer, particularly this one:

YouTube link

As everyone has said, if defending put out your 6 pieces of half sized terrain so your defenders 2 to 3 feature equivalents ) , hopefully that will break up the table so no straight runs at you with wide open spaces.
Put the blade in rgo yes they will be a 3 now but his Knights won't go in otherwise they will be a 1 and no quick kill.
Also as someone said use your Lh on his flanks, if your opponents smart his commands will be set up so even if all the Knights die you still have to go after his filler troops at the back, Bw(I) .
Sit and wait for him, except on the flanks, does the Roman list have any field fortifications to place in any open areas, don't have the list handy?

Just think historically--terrain or bow fire to break them up, then slaughter them piecemeal. Neither historically nor on the tabletop (nor on the fields of Pelennor) can infantry stand up to an unbroken line of knights charging across an open field.

What Khusrau wrote. Same thing Narses did vs the O-goths in Italy. Put your troops in a V formation with the wide end facing your opponent. Double base you Bd at the point. If you take Lh place them behind your line to fill gaps. Lh quick kill Kn's but will usually need overlaps to win. Put the Aux in the RGo.

I would take the P's for support instead of bow. Sarmations can have a Wb ally; Wb(o) or Franks Wb(s). Don't worry about 38 Kn's. He will probably take a lot of filler troops to beef up his break points and contest any bad going. If he doesn't attack your defensive position go after his filler troops with the Aux. If he does take all Kn's then worry. Good luck.

Man you all rock! Thanks for all the great feedback. I will draw something up tonight and let you all know what I come up with. Sounds like I have some terrain making to do as well!

Ok, I worked up an army list, let me know what you all think.

Command #1:
C-in-C Bd(O) 26
Legionaries Bd(O) x15 90
Auxiliary Inf Ax(S) x4 18
Auxiliary Arc Ps(O) x3 6

Command #2:
Sub Gen Bd(O) 26
Legionaries Bd(O) x15 90
Auxiliary Inf Ax(S) x4 18
Auxiliary Arc Ps(O) x3 6

Command #3:
Sub Gen Cv(O) 28
Equites Alares Cv(O) x2 16
Equites Sagitari LF(F)x1 4
Numidian Cav Ir LH(O) x3 15

Allied Command:
German Gen Ir Cv(O) 12
German Cav Ir Cv(O) x1 7
German WB Ir Wb(F) x9 27
German Skirm Ir Ps(I) x2 2
E Germ Skirm Ir PS(S) x1 3

Should be 394 points, add 6 points for ditch and palisade. Overall break is 31.25. The command break points are 7.17, 7.17, 2.33, and 4.17 respectively. Let me know what you all think!

The German command adds nothing to the army, quite the contrary – Warband (particularly Wb(F)) are toast to Kn(F). But shouldn't Germans be Wb(O)? They fought in close formations.
You also lose the ability to swap dice with that command.

So get rid of the Germans, and add more troops to command 3 – you want to take as much cavalry as the list allows.

I read somewhere it has been said to always take 4 commands, and my thinking was I could throw the warband into the Rgo and they would do ok, but your probably right my points are better spend elsewhere.

Four pip dice are better than three but you have an expensive Roman army that most likely will do just as good with the three dice, being all drilled and have higher break points to boot.
And yes as Dexter says bulk up on Lh , which has been pointed out will need overlaps on Kn unless you get very rare golden opportunity's like turning one Kn that migh recoil into his own general.

Dump the Germans. They're a liability. I believe EIR's can have a couple of KN(f). Take them instead. Keep them with your mounted reserve. They won't survive the battle (mine never do) but they're the best shock troops you get.

Replace the Lh(f) with a Lh(o). Lh(f) are only effective in large numbers. If you do take it consider placing it with a Bd cmd. If your mounted reserve has to go towards one flank the Lh(f) can slow an attack on the other.

Beef up the 3rd cmd.

Then again, I don't believe I've ever won a tournament game. Ignore all the above. Good luck.

Oops, forgot. If you really want to mess with your opponent take Sarmation allies.

Maverick,
How did it go with the Knights ?

AAR pleeeeeease

Hello everyone! It went as expected, pretty bad! :D I was defender and threw out 6 pieces of rough terrain, but it was just my luck that every piece ended up on one side of the board, leaving a good 4 feet of wide open terrain.

He took all knights, with about 10 stands of Hordes. Lined all his knights up on the 4 foot of open terrain. I made a formation that allowed him to not get on my flanks, making kind of a sideways L formation.

It didn't help though. He still was able to best me on the flank, getting a +4 to my 3+. He got two lucky rolls in the first round of combat and doubled my blades twice, thus I lost 4 stands right off the bat.

The troops that I set in the rough going just weren't fast enough to get through and make a flank march possible. By the time they even got close to his left flank I had 2 broken commands.

I don't think I even killed a single unit. Don't know if I will ever be accepting games vs all knights again. To be fair though, he knows the one army I have, and he specifically designed his list to beat mine, he didn't even have Sarmatian figures, opting instead to use his Frankish army figures. Oh well, lesson learned.

Tomorrow, I will be facing off my Romans vs a new players Samurai. Should be fun and I'll let you all know how that game goes.

He chose an army he had no miniatures for just in order to beat you? Man, what did you do to him in the past?

Although the result may not be completely satisfying (does your friend know of this place here?) thanks for letting us know – this is sportmanship

As I recall one of the problems with DBM 3.0 was bulking commands of Knights with Hordes lining the back of the table. Players took enough Hordes so that even if you killed all the Knights you couldn't break the command.

The Hordes just stood at the back cheering.

TomT

That was my first (and possibly last) time playing DBM with him. He's a nice person but they type that will do what ever to win; I mostly just play because I think my Roman army looks cool and I love history.

@thomas: that's exactly what he did except I didn't kill any Knights lol!

Oh well, got a game tomorrow vs samurai which should be fun! Blade vs blade will be interesting.

Maverick,
We used to have the same sort of player at out club which is why it took me a while to learn the rules in the beginning I think, as some stuff changed shall we say ( a certain author dosent write in a straight forward manner so I couldn't look stuff up easily ).
Yes the rules have some problems/loop holes but don't they all, FOG had the Late Roman swarm and DBM has the filler type troops at the back.
The samurai should be fun to fight. The Roman's will tend to be smaller than everything you meet, your two advantages are pip dice swapping and Reg. troops being a lot more manoeuvrable. Good luck with them, we all start with Roman's.

Sorry your game was so one-sided. Nothing dampens your enthusiasm for a game more than losing, except losing big. My 1st opponent was one of the top tournament players. I huddled in one corner petrified as he spent the game attacking me as he pleased. Afterwards he advised me to spread my commands out. My last game that day was vs EIR's and the player did just what I had done; he set up in a back corner. I realized my 1st opponent had been correct. I could do whatever I wanted since he couldn't break his formation or hit any troops I sent forward in the flank.

Bad terrian/ dice rolls happen, but don't give up the ship. May I suggest mid or late Romans? They come with more P's (to support Bd,) more Kn's and even LH(s). Late Romans are very flexible (yes, they're one of my favorates) and while Kn armies are a tuff nut to crack, they're not a super army. In my experience Kn(f) either win big or lose big. With a more fair dispostion of the terrain you might just turn the tables on his Kn's.

Must agree with catavar with the way the terrain went against you by the sounds of it.

Please note that the problems discussed are not with DBX in general but DBM 3.0.

I was an avid DBM player including tournaments and historical battles until the changes wrought by DBM 3.0.

Just avoid this version and the DBX mechanics work fine even with hard bitten tournament types.

Phil and esp. Bodley-Scott got rolled by a bunch of tournament types when they mangled DBX in DBM 3.0.

Don't give up on DBX just because of DBM 3.0 (no longer supported or endorsed by Phil).

I find DBM's direct replacement – DBMM – a bit too complex (though many love the game) so I've moved onto DBA 3.0 Big Battle where cheering Hordes don't count and Blades Destroy Knights on Equals.

TomT

Thomas, aren't the rules for DBM 3.2 on the WRG website ( where Phil is involved, one of the directors or something ) available for 'free' download?

Phil gave his permission for it all so I think that counts as an endorsement of some description doesn't it ?

Also I believe most people played the 3.0 version for some time until the great FOG/ MM split ? And which version you like is down to personal taste, as I find DBA dosen't give the same feel of a much smaller Roman army beating a larger hairy barbarian horde.

Everyone one has 12 stands ( or multiples there of ) against 12 as opposed to history where Reg. drilled troops helped a lot over undrilled. Don't get me wrong I play the odd game once in a while and am even painting up a DBA army to be given as a prize for the 2.2+ chaps at Lancaster where I only play DBM.

I do agree with you on MM being overly complex. It will be interesting to see the newer version if it ever gets printed and how people receive it as from what I saw, in a brief look on the MM forum, that Phil was changing stuff that people didn't want/need to be changed.

Just to set the record straight: Phil Barker doesn't "endorse" DBM 3.2 – the last version which he accepts is 3.0, published in 2000. He generously agreed to make 3.2 available from the WRG website, that's all. Richard Bodley Scott agreed to the 3.2 changes and they're used at the DBM competition he hosts each year, although he no longer plays DBM himself.

DBA is fun. Cut my teeth on them. If not for DBA I probably wouldn't be playing ancients.

I tried DBM for larger armies and more detail. While I think command and control is a bit generous to reg generals it does make for an enjoyable game. While I didn't see a need for radical change I can live with the recent updates (except they neutered my Byzantines *%#?@! it). Seems to me the rules were discarded by many for being too familiar and not for how well they played.

Sorry if I jacked this thread… attack Kn formation with 1-3 single stands (from different directions if possible). Break the formation making them go spono. Attack them seperately with your intact formation. Kn's go poof! Wa-la.

Anyone interested there's a nice write-up about dealing with Irr Kn(f). Search… advice on regular fast knighting. Should be 1st web page, if not scroll down. Writers name proceeds search title.

Read another DBM article giving Lh odds vs Kn's head to head. Short answer is, unless Lh(s), don't try it.

If you don't mind me asking how'd the Bd match-up go? Just curious.