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"DBM Irregular Movement" Topic

De Bellis Multitudinis

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maverick290922 Oct 2016 1:49 p.m. PST

Hello. So our club got into a really heated debate today. It was over the movement of irregular troops. One player is arguing that irregular troops moving in a column don't have to pay a +1 movement penalty. I think he is interpreting the rules wrong, but I went along with it because most of the group agreed.

Is this correct? If irregular troops are in a column they can move however they want without paying a +1 pip penalty? why would they be able to avoid this pip increase but a single element wouldn't?

Rhysius Cambrensis22 Oct 2016 2:33 p.m. PST

I only have the latest version of DBMM which states an irregular element does not need to expend an additional PIP if it is following another in a column.

maverick290922 Oct 2016 3:21 p.m. PST

Yes that's the rule he is talking about. Basically he is interpreting this to say that his column can wheel and turn and only expend one pip. The verbiage is odd because it's implying you don't have to expend an additional pip if you're following someone in a column, but if it's a group move you'll have one guy not following anyone and several others behind him following.

Rhysius Cambrensis22 Oct 2016 3:35 p.m. PST

Yeah it is an odd way of putting it as it is basically saying the lead element of the column expends one additional PIP but the remainder of the group do not, so therefore, overall, the group still expends one additional PIP for being irregular.

Therefore to move one irregular group in column it will cost two PIPs total.

If that is your argument then I believe you to be right and not the other party. It must cost two PIPs due to "irregular clumsiness".

Tony S23 Oct 2016 12:16 p.m. PST

But the original post referred to DBM, and you are discussing the latest DBMM? Was that rule also in DBM?

The rule does seem really badly written, no matter what version or ruleset you are referring to!

Rhysius Cambrensis23 Oct 2016 1:02 p.m. PST

Indeed the original post does refer to DBM, however, the same rule has carried over to DBMM from DBM. I also played a lot of DBM in the late 90's and noughties – I regularly led an English HYW army to defeat against various opponents, including HYW French!

I am now constructing and painting a brand new 15mm Feudal English army and HYW army (eventually) for L'Art De La Guerre. I highly recommend these rules as a logical, intelligent, and less ambiguous and simpler evolution of DBx rules and FOG which I never liked as it was just WRG re-invented.

I no longer have my DBM ruleset but the rule is continued in DBMM from DBM.

maverick290923 Oct 2016 7:11 p.m. PST

Correct, the rule is written the same in DBMM and DBM and thus the question applies there as well. What's the point of clarifying that a unit following another in a column doesn't pay an additional pip when they never did any away!

I completely agree on ADLG, but my group pretty much refuses to switch off of DBM sadly.

Rhysius Cambrensis24 Oct 2016 1:37 a.m. PST

I agree, its a silly clarification – it doesn't need it and opens the rule up to abuse by being there and poorly worded in the first place.

John GrahamLeigh Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2016 7:32 a.m. PST

The rule does make sense… If you have a column of Irregular Knights, for example, it's an extra PIP to move other than full distance straight ahead. So if the lead element in the column wheels, the move takes 2 PIPs and may end with a "bent column" (depending on how acute the wheel is and how long the column is). If the lead element then moves full distance straight ahead, it costs only 1 PIP even though some of the elements further back in the column are following it "around the bend". That's the point of the rule.

Hope that's clear! It can be quite important.

maverick290924 Oct 2016 8:39 a.m. PST

Oh now that makes sense! Great illustration and I know exactly what you're talking about. I'll have to show this to my group and let them know you have blessed it. Thanks John!

John GrahamLeigh Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2016 9:47 a.m. PST

Glad to be of help. I had some practice at manoeuvring Irregular Knights at last weekend's competition – my customary write-up is on my web site at link

Rhysius Cambrensis24 Oct 2016 12:09 p.m. PST

Oh I see! Makes sense now!

maverick290924 Oct 2016 1:30 p.m. PST

Hey John, while I have your attention, we had another question come up. I had bowmen shooting at psiloi. We all agreed that the psiloi recoil if beaten, however some of our members believed that psiloi flee if doubled, however when I checked the rules, I interpreted it as psiloi die if doubled by shooting.

My logic is that under the light horse it specifically mentions they flee from shooting buy die in close combat. For Psiloi, it doesn't specify as such. The older players think this was an oversight and that they should flee from being doubled by bowmen. What do you think?

John GrahamLeigh Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2016 2:54 p.m. PST

You're right – psiloi doubled by bowmen shooting are destroyed. They flee if outscored by artillery shooting, or if doubled by war wagons shooting.

Psiloi are good in close combat against bowmen; having them impervious to shooting, as in the original 1993 rules, made them too good so the rule was changed many years ago.

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