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"Clash Of Empires - shocking news" Topic

Clash of Empires

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Gloria Smud28 Apr 2011 10:50 a.m. PST

I perused a copy Clash Of Empires earlier today at my local gaming store. I was impressed , very nicely presented, lots of pictures & very glossy paper (with colour coded edges).
I found myself heading for my wallet when to my utter horror I noticed that all the distances are in centimeters centimeters !!
I immediately put them down in utter disgust everyone knows "proper" wargames rules use inches well I ask you whatever next!……

kyoteblue28 Apr 2011 10:53 a.m. PST

The Horror…

meledward2328 Apr 2011 10:53 a.m. PST

Well Hail Caesar uses Inches.

Impetus uses inches if you play 28mm.

Other than that, my preference is Sam Mustafas use of Base Widths.

Connard Sage28 Apr 2011 10:56 a.m. PST

I never really got over any ancient rules that dropped the WRG 'paces'

Caesar28 Apr 2011 10:57 a.m. PST

You get used to it.

Griefbringer28 Apr 2011 11:04 a.m. PST

The concept of paces as unit of measurement stroke me as a brilliant idea when I first encountered it in DBR.

However, I was rather annoyed when the rules failed to use the paces to determine base depth for the various unit types.

everyone knows "proper" wargames rules use inches

Somehow a lot of wargames rules fail to use those when it comes to defining base sizes.

Sumatran Rat Monkey28 Apr 2011 11:04 a.m. PST

I noticed that all the distances are in centimeters centimeters !!


Is… is that even legal?

And I mean, this is the 21st Century, have they no shame? No sense of decorum?!

- Sumatraumatized Rat Monkey

MajorB28 Apr 2011 11:10 a.m. PST

"I immediately put them down in utter disgust everyone knows "proper" wargames rules use inches well I ask you whatever next!…"

If you want inches, then divide by 2.5. Simples.

JJartist28 Apr 2011 11:16 a.m. PST

Divide in yer head?? Cypherin is un amerrican… luckily the distances are mostly the same in CoE as WAB (despite the haughty statement that Centimeters are more accurate- which I reckon was tongue in cheek)…. so 20CM equals 8"… but then again my tape measures have the metirc scale on them as well- even though using metrics is illegal in most states, it's ok as long as we don't get outed.

Plynkes28 Apr 2011 11:40 a.m. PST

Centimeters? What are you? Some sort of… American?

The good old-fashioned British Centimetre was good enough for my old dad, and it's good enough for me.

MajorB28 Apr 2011 11:41 a.m. PST

Divide in yer head??

Nah, don't be silly. Most gamers use a QRS. Just knock up a QRS with the measurements in inches rather than centimetres.

Cypherin is un amerrican…

Don't know about un-American… the OP is in the UK!

Personal logo ageofglory Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Apr 2011 11:43 a.m. PST

Buy all the copies in your local store and burn them. What absolute heresy!

raylev328 Apr 2011 12:09 p.m. PST

Just another example of how continental heresies are encroaching true British thinking. Next thing you know you'll have to measure out your veggies in kilos at the local Tesco.

blacksmith28 Apr 2011 12:22 p.m. PST

Only barbarians use inches. Civilized people use centimetres :P

Griefbringer28 Apr 2011 12:29 p.m. PST

If you want inches, then divide by 2.5. Simples.

Blasphemy! The one and only correct value to use for cm-to-inch conversions is 2.54 (exactly).

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Apr 2011 12:41 p.m. PST

Now wouldn't it be so much simpler if they just said 'musket range is 200yd' and gave you a ground scale.

Personally any rules that can't be bothered to use real distances get a low score from me.

It just never feels right to say to an opponent …

'your Tiger is over 30 inches from my 17pr so it can't penetrate'.

Gloria Smud28 Apr 2011 1:03 p.m. PST

Plynkes – sorry I work with Americans and get easily confused sometimes – heck you should see me drive!

Griefbringer – everyone knows that in proper rules:-)
1)bases sizes are in centimetres
2)figure heights are in centimetres
3)Everything else should be in inches

Tescos indeed!

Bill Rosser28 Apr 2011 1:19 p.m. PST

All movement should be from the tip of the thumb to the first joint. This is one.

PS: This is also the depth of an infantry figures stand, and the width of a single figure stand.

Multiply as required for multiples and distances.

(by the way I also like national differences in rules as well).

lugal hdan28 Apr 2011 1:20 p.m. PST

They *do* have a conversion appendix, though it doesn't follow 2.54 very directly (it rounds to the nearest inch).

SgtPerry28 Apr 2011 1:26 p.m. PST

I have draft reference sheet in cm. I plan to do a version in inches once it is approved.

Personal logo McKinstry Supporting Member of TMP Fezian28 Apr 2011 1:27 p.m. PST

Real men use inches.

If a set of rules requires the effeminate and probably communist inspired metric system then real men should rightly refuse to use them and possibly may feel free to shoot and/or at a minimum, roundhouse kick any copies in sight.

Chuck Norris, John Wayne, Charles Bronson and Sgt. Alvin York (real men one and all) wouldn't be caught dead using centimeters in a wargame.

RelliK28 Apr 2011 1:46 p.m. PST

I would consider cm when playing 15mm and 28mm in inches…

Is there a way just to disregard the centimeters and make it inches without any issues?


SgtPerry28 Apr 2011 1:49 p.m. PST

There are conversion rules in the book. That is what I will use for the inches version.

Griefbringer28 Apr 2011 1:56 p.m. PST

may feel free to shoot and/or at a minimum, roundhouse kick any copies in sight

For shooting books, I would recommend good old flamethrower. In a pinch one could use a shotgun though, presuming there is a sufficient amount of ammo available. Shooting a book with pistol is unlikely to have much of an effect.

aecurtis Fezian28 Apr 2011 2:09 p.m. PST

>>> Now wouldn't it be so much simpler if they just said 'musket range is 200yd' and gave you a ground scale.

Hell, no! Placing actual ranges within a set of rules just offers up opportunities for arguments from those who have never shot a bow, slung a stone, or fired a weapon, but think they possess the sum of all knowledge--or worse, those who have done one of those things a couple of times, and are convinced that they are now experts.

We play games, not simulations. And even professional operations research simulation developers hose up the application of range data big time.


(Nameo Falso)28 Apr 2011 2:23 p.m. PST

Surely any self respecting ancients game uses cubits as units of measurement?

Caesar28 Apr 2011 3:04 p.m. PST

But what is a Roman mile in the game?

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP28 Apr 2011 3:07 p.m. PST

How many angels can dance on the head of a pilum?

Jeremy Sutcliffe28 Apr 2011 3:08 p.m. PST

I've no problem with using centiMETRES. What a bl**dy pompous comment, especially from someone who can't be bothered to spell it properly.

And if Napoleonic enthusiasts has anything about them they would demand centimetre application in all Napoleonic rules as "de rigeur" in tribute to the achievements of Revolutionary France

Royal Marine28 Apr 2011 3:19 p.m. PST

All ancient rules need to be measured in CUBITS.

All 'merikans need to spell proper.

Next subject please.

(Nameo Falso)28 Apr 2011 4:00 p.m. PST


When criticising someone else's spelling, punctuation or grammar, it does rather behove one to be perfect in one's own post, lest some other uncharitable soul find fault. You may want to edit your second paragraph with that in mind.

How's Peter BTW?

UK John28 Apr 2011 4:18 p.m. PST

well "pyramid inches" for the Egyptians?

Pedrobear28 Apr 2011 6:30 p.m. PST

Every rule-set that covers the period before the French Revolution should use the inch – otherwise it won't be historical.

Valator28 Apr 2011 6:53 p.m. PST

I use inches, but by a more pure meathod of determining that unit of measurement. By determing the width of Duke Siefried's left thumb at the base of the thumbnail, I have obtained the best possible wargamer's inch. I would have used a measurement from his right thumb, but the hand to which that thumb was attached to was wrapped around my throat while the venerable gentleman screamed for someone to dial 9-1-1.

Jeremy Sutcliffe29 Apr 2011 2:33 a.m. PST

oddiabolorio, I will accept the nclusion of a singular verb with a plural subject.

Ban Chao29 Apr 2011 4:18 a.m. PST

inches and centimetres, who cares they are both on rulers/tapes.

arthur181529 Apr 2011 4:32 a.m. PST

I find it strange that, after fighting for years to escape the so-called tyranny of George III, Americans remain wedded to British Imperial units, rather than using the metric system introduced some years later by their French allies…

It also, perhaps, reflects the fact that their houses and apartments are – to judge by US TV shows – far larger than our more modest dwellings this side of the Atlantic.

To be serious for a moment:
My experience as a schoolteacher is that most UK children today have no understanding of yards, feet or inches, as their lessons in Maths and Science use metric measurements. It therefore makes sense for modern wargame rules to use cm or mm as the units of measurement on the table, though the groundscale may equate them to Imperial or other historically used units to help create period atmosphere.

Lovejoy29 Apr 2011 5:02 a.m. PST

inches and centimetres, who cares they are both on rulers/tapes.

Nope – weirdly, I bought a tape measure last week and when I got home, realised it only has markings in centimetres… I'll probably end up chucking it out!

MajorB29 Apr 2011 5:20 a.m. PST

Here's a QRS in two versions – one in cms, the other in inches!

Griefbringer29 Apr 2011 5:32 a.m. PST

Every rule-set that covers the period before the French Revolution should use the inch otherwise it won't be historical.

Nonsense, for real historical accuracy every army should use entirely different units of measurement – with regional variation factored in, so that units deriving from different parts of the same country should use slightly different sizes of the same unit of measurement.

And what is this sillyness about using modern measuring tapes? For historical accuracy, one should use the appropriate way of measurement for the given place and time – for example an Anglo-Saxon player wanting to shoot some Viking raiders should use real barleycorns for measuring the range.

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP29 Apr 2011 6:08 a.m. PST

Actually Griefbringer small length measurements were reasonably well standardised across at least Northern Europe, it was weight that varied a good deal and also methods of measuring longer distances.

Metric measurement is so obviously easier & better I can never understand why people were not keen to switch instead of being so illogically resistant to change.

The confusion amongst today's UK schoolkids is so bad that they can't effectively work in EITHER system.

Gloria Smud29 Apr 2011 6:13 a.m. PST

mmmmm …"I will accept the nclusion of a singular verb with a plural subject."
I recall an episode of Phoenix Nights – to paraphrase
" I'm getting the word COCK!"

General Jumbo29 Apr 2011 6:20 a.m. PST

Gentlemen, gentlemen,
The Regimental Sergeant Major's pace stick is the only correct way to accurately measure the movement of a military unit, so the scale model of an RSM armed with such an implement should be included in all figure ranges produced for the hobby.
By the same token, models of small drummer boys armed with white-painted stakes should be marched (accurately by the aforesaid RSM) out to the front of the wargaming units, in order to mark ranges precisely.
Naturally, these stakes should be detachable, or there may very soon be a lack of percussion-based timing in the regimental band, which you all no doubt purchase at the same time as your rifle companies and RSMs.
The subsequent disastrous effect on the brass and woodwind sections (not to mention the drum major and regimental mascot) would of course destroy cohesion amongst the marching rank and file, and before you know it, the battalion will be at sixes and sevens.
As we all know, these sixes and sevens can be measured either in inches or in centimetres, but tremendous and possibly irreversible damage to unit morale will already have been done.
Don't even get me started on measurements at sea (knots, leagues, fathoms) or heaven forbid, moving into another dimension, measuring the altitude of your air force ….. feet, metres, or barometric pressure readings? Above sea level or above ground level …… a topic seriously important to The Red Arrows (I have no idea who sells those, or even who would buy them).
There are always more cans of worms to be opened, whether measured in pints, litres or fluid ounces ….

Apologies, but I thought this was a silly subject in the first place, so I didn't think anybody would mind me joining in with more of the same tripe ………

1815Guy29 Apr 2011 7:07 a.m. PST

Yes, I totally agree. I made sure I kept my £24.00 GBP 19s 6d firmly in my grasp.

deephorse29 Apr 2011 11:53 a.m. PST

19s/6d. Those were the days. I once worked a whole week for 19s/6d. I was ripped off of course.

I considered myself rich when I got a florin for my pocket money. Oh for the feel of a threepenny bit.

Ban Chao29 Apr 2011 12:05 p.m. PST

@Lovejoy you will find that an exception and not the norm ^^

Lovejoy29 Apr 2011 12:14 p.m. PST

I hope so, Wodensraven! I needed it in inches… I got it from Tescos, and I had a quick check back today, and they still only had centimetre ones… thankfully the local hardware store definitely has the more manly 'inches' versions in stock – I'll be down there in the morning.

Connard Sage30 Apr 2011 2:36 a.m. PST

Oh for the feel of a threepenny bit.


Dave Jackson30 Apr 2011 7:23 a.m. PST

Inch by inch…we're going metric…

General Jumbo30 Apr 2011 1:15 p.m. PST

Metric? To be resisted with every last ounce of willpower!

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