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"Army size question for Armati II" Topic


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Who asked this joker17 Mar 2009 7:24 a.m. PST

This one is for the Armati II players out there. The book says that the typical army size is core army + 75 points. I do not have quite that number of stands to make 2 full armies. How badly will it affect the game if I go with core + 50 points? I am going for "optimal" sized units.

I've seen on "War Flute" forums or some place else that smaller armies could lead to "gamey" setups.

I'd post to that forum but i can't register. I can't contact the moderator because you need to be registered to contact him. I can't register because registration is disabled.

Thanks for the help in advance!


royaleddy17 Mar 2009 7:44 a.m. PST

that should be fine.
i really like Armati. it gives a good game with simple, clear rules. core +50 gives you around 15 bases, spread out over 7+ divisions.
i'd suggest you try to have a house rule to avoid single-unit divisions.
one thing you will need to bear in mind is how clumbersome large lines of infantry are. so i'd suggest you avoid infantry-only armies.

Who asked this joker17 Mar 2009 7:50 a.m. PST

Hi 4KingShaw,

Thanks for the reply. I think you are talking about intro level (1 and 2 base units) and I am talking about Optimal level (2 and 4 base units). However, I think you've given some points for me to think about.


royaleddy17 Mar 2009 8:08 a.m. PST


royaleddy17 Mar 2009 8:29 a.m. PST

(I've actually dug the rulebook out now)

Why are you going for Optimum scale? Obviously if you have enough figs for core +50 in optimum you have plenty for core+whatever in intro scale.

At my club we play intro (as you guessed) with core +100 armies retaining the same divisional scores. Most players have infantry consisting of 2 DBx bases one behind the other. Though I like it so much I rebased all my infantry. For example in 15mm my FT are 40x30mm with 6-8 figs, my SI 40x40 with 3 figs, LI 40x40 with 4.
My NK Egyptian core+100 army has 25 bases (incl 7 chariots). Armies of this sizehas encouraged people to get many armies to core+100 size.

With this a game is completed within 2-3 hours.

Ps we don't bother with exhaution.

Who asked this joker17 Mar 2009 8:52 a.m. PST

Why are you going for Optimum scale? Obviously if you have enough figs for core +50 in optimum you have plenty for core+whatever in intro scale.

Good question. Initially I was thinking of look and feel. however, if heavies are two deep, then you are right. I can probably field a full 2 armies of whatever.

So now that that is out of the way I have some follow on questions…

Does intro scale change the way this game is played? Do any of the rules have to be tweaked for the intro scale?

Do stands ever get removed? If not then I reckon you could use whatever stand/basing system you like…

How come you don't use exhaustion? That, to me, is one of those key elements that add some reality and a reason to keep a reserve. Is it just because of the extra book keeping?



royaleddy17 Mar 2009 9:14 a.m. PST

no changes.

stands are removed. eg Heavy foot take 4 hits.

we don't use exhaustion firstly because of the book-keeping (we use dead figs for hits and stones for complex manouvres and i thought another type of counter would clutter the table). and secondly if you have to stop to recover exhaustion the slow-moving inf are even slower.

Keraunos17 Mar 2009 9:22 a.m. PST

I strongly recommend that you do play with fatigue.

It is one of the central concepts – and prevents, for example, a single unit of Heavy Cavalry winning the game by charging with impetus again, and again, and again.

50 points can be worked – just reduce the wings of the table a bit, and perhaps drop a heavy command from each side if you find lots of small unit divisions.

The basic game works on you having a single block of heavy infantry in the middle (hardly able to wheel), and a wing of cavalary on each side, and a reserve to plug the gap you missed – 4 heavy commands, so if you keep that roughly in mind, you can't go wrong.

Intro has the main effect that all units have a smaller width, so can wheel slightly more.

we are playing Magnesia tonight (in about an hour's time) but roughly +150 points in Optimal scale.

waaslandwarrior17 Mar 2009 9:24 a.m. PST

you will probably never get the time to recover from exhaustion. Most of our games are over before you can recover, but it does effect your fighting skills.

Concerning core + 50 pts armies:
We did core + 40 pts armies, and even different points against each other (in a campaign). no problem with that! It is really difficult to win with a smaller army against a larger one, but it is possible.

waaslandwarrior17 Mar 2009 9:28 a.m. PST

Magnesia is one of my favorite battles.
Good luck and have fun!

Who asked this joker17 Mar 2009 9:55 a.m. PST

If you think about it Keraunos, can you post a battle report?

It sounds like, then, that basic pretty much kills a unit after 2-4 hits, depending on the unit where as in optimum, you can lose stands.

I have not read through the rules thoroughly yet so I am sure most of my questions can be answered after that. Thanks for the input all!

Keraunos18 Mar 2009 2:39 a.m. PST

pre battle battle report.

this will turn into a couple of games, as we tweak the scenario a little more each time. It is prompted by discussions we have had on this battle, so we are trying ideas as we go.

I counted the points when we got home last night.

which is not too inaccurate by the numbers present I think.

we are tweaking the FV a bit for game balance for next time, as this is a matched refight, not a matched scenario.

Selucids have 3H and 3L commands (and a line of scyth chariots)
Romans have 6H and 3L commands.

both sides given minimal room to move (except forwards) by the rivers.

Our Tactica 28mm guys were impessed by the display (16 PH on a normal table is impressive, take my word for it), and as they have the resources to do the maniples as maniples, are thinking of an end of year game as well.

Keraunos18 Mar 2009 2:40 a.m. PST

figures wise, our main restriction was the lack of Romans, so we could only represent each legion by 3 HI units (we estimate 4 would be more accurate in Armati's scale). most of the rest followed from there.

2 legions (6 HI of principes and Hastatii) and one Triarii
2 legions of Socii (6 HI of italian allies)
a single line of SI Jav to cover this frontage
2 LI peltast types
2 Roman / Pergamene HC
2 LC (Numidian)

4 Cats
2 Scth Chariots
2 Elephants
2 Galatian Heavy Cav
2 Agema Royal Heavy Cav (FV 5)
2 LC Tarantine
2 LC Dahae (bow armed)
3 Peltasts
7 SI Jav
2 Galatian HI
2 Agryaspids (FV8)
12 PH (FV7)

Keraunos18 Mar 2009 2:41 a.m. PST

3 scyth chariots. for the seleucids
and 3 SI bow for the romans as well

Keraunos18 Mar 2009 3:06 a.m. PST

'Special rules'

All heavy infantry had to deploy two sections wide.
All SI were doubled to a two section unit (one SI covering the front of one HI) but LI were left at one section

we allowed el and scyth to cause rout through checks from missile fire (from the direction of the last die roll shooting) to reflect their catastrophic failure

an el routing is an automatic sweep away in Armati.
we added an automatic disorder for a scyth routing (as well as a normal die roll for carrying the unit off) to reflect the historic disaster which occurred

the seleucid left wing was roll played to stay right on the back of the chariots in order to ensure the rout check was viable historically, and on their right wing, we roll played obligatory charges to the end of the board, to simulate the chase for the camp.

we had both units on the same (4) initiative, to cut splits and reflect the initial timidity before the redeployed a second time closer to each other.

Keraunos18 Mar 2009 3:06 a.m. PST

The battle opened with the chariots being shot down, disordering the left wing charge (no rout throughs failed), while on the right, the socii duly got swept away in one round, as we hoped.
The roman had by far the better of the SI javelin toss in the middle. – all entirely historical, in fact.
However, the Roman then pulled back the SI for the legions to get in (he interpreted the historic win as being dur to Pila missiles, where I thought it was Javelins and Arrows).

Ultimately, the Seleucid right wing failed to return from the camp in time to follow up on their victory (again historic). The disordered left wing was destroyed along with the Roman cav, leaving just LI and Bow armed troops from the Roman side to target the elephant stuck on the end of the phalanx, and this would certianly have won the game as it won the historic battle, had not the legion gone toe to toe from round two in the middle, where sheer weight of numbers tolled in the end.

We declared a bloody draw, and will drop the phalanx FV by one along the line to make them more vulnerable for game two in a couple of weeks.
a stated pursuit rule will also be added. to cut the roll play a little, and spice it up if they don't go headstrong to the camp.

All done and dusted in 2.5 hours (BTW) including beer time

Who asked this joker18 Mar 2009 5:34 a.m. PST

Sounds like a very fun game and beer was involved too! grin

Thanks for the report!

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