"Impetus pike vs spear question" Topic

I have triple sized Macedonian and Achamenid Persian armies based for DBA, and while I love DBA, I have never been satisfied with the way pikes are represented. It seems more appropriate for Renaissance gaming than the way they were used in the ancient world. I have even enjoyed a few games of DBA 3.0, but I fear the ancient pikes will be made even weaker by the new spear support rules in which pike do not share. I am seriously considering re-basing the whole collection for impetus. Does anyone have experience with the way spear and pike interact in the Impetus system? How about Persians vs Macedonians? Do they make a fun and challenging match up or is one side over-powered?

David

Well in basic impetus (a free downloaded trimmed version of the full rules) pikes and spears don't matter, as far as I know.

Every unit (stand, base etc) has a vbu value, which is how good overall the unit is, also how many dice you roll in combat, it is also how many hits they can take before they run away.
Then each unit has an impetus rating. This is how many extra dice you can roll when they charge.
Double 5s and single 6s always hit.
I'm assuming pikes have a special rule of some sort, or they can use their impetus when charged, not entirely sure, as I currently only play basic.

You can go to the website, and download the rules for free.
Also 200+ free army lists on the site
Just search "basic impetus"

Even in Basic Impetus, there are rules for pikes and spears. Both nullify the Impetus Bonus of enemy cavalry. The impetus bonus is basically bonus charge dice that fresh units get on the first round of a combat that they initiate.

Pikes also can form large units, essentially two units formed deep and again gain bonus dice against both cavalry and infantry (although more against cavalry) when in this formation.

Thanks for clearing up my above statement NobleHero
I have only ever played 1 game, so by no means am I an expert :) gotta look at the rules a couple more times.

Looks like Macedonia vs Persia would be pretty balanced then.

The spear/pike distinction quoted above for Impetus is very similar to the way spears and pikes work in DBA.
(Good against cavalry, and pikes can form deep to make them more effective against both infantry and cavalry).
What was it about DBA that made you think pikes were more like Renaissance ones?

A pike phalanx in DBA is pretty mean. Haven't tried v3 pikes yet.

Pike in Impetus are very tough. We recently played Magnesia and the main pike block was munching up the main Roman battle line when the Selecuid left flank collapsed.

The real benefit for pike is the ability to form large units of three stands. Large units allow the front unit to maintain its full fighting power and eventually grind its opponent down to nothing. Spear are tough as well but can only form large units of two stands and thus their staying power is less.

Dexter,

In DBA pike are given a combat factor less than spear, unless double ranked, but in a game of evenly balance numbers of elements, if you double rank elements you have to sacrifice the width of the front line leading to overlaps, which in DBA, are a great way to kill elements that would otherwise be simply recoiled. In Version 3 of DBA, spears can support each other from side to side, making them even stronger against pike (which does not receive side support). I must make a caveat that I have not been able to try out version3 in a pike versus spear battle, so my thoughts are only conjectural at this point.

My gripe is that in the ancient world pike formations were not really any deeper than hoplite formations. Both pike and spear formations were anywhere from 8-16 deep usually, but in wargames people think of pikes in these little ultra deep blocks that were a product of the medieval/Renaissance period. Most pike formations in the ancient world were hundreds of ranks long by 8-12 deep. They could be deployed in smaller "blocks", but were generally deployed as a long line in front to stick the enemy infantry while the cavalry did its work on the flanks.

At Raphia and Magnesia some of the phalanxes were 32 ranks deep and the normal deployment was 16. Very few hoplite formations deployed in those kinds of depths.

I'm not terribly familiar with the successor battles, but I'm guessing both forces were deployed in greater depth, neither really overlapping the other. The depth of both the hoplite and pike formations were variable. It would be interesting to know the depth of the formations of battles that were spear on pike.

Pikes did routinely deploy deeper than spears. Usually 16 (or occasionally 32 ranks) deep, as opposed to spears which were usually 8 ranks deep (occasionally more). So maybe DBA has it right?
I've not played v3 (in fact I've most played v1.x DBA) and the balance seems OK in those versions.
I suspect the problem is that with only 12 elements double ranking is too much of a disadvantage. In DBA's big brothers (DBM and DBMM) pikes cost less than spears, so deploying deeper is not such a problem.
One simple work around – stick two bases of pike on a double-deep base and call it one base for DBA purposes.
Advantage – you get more bases in your army
Disadvantage – when it dies, you lose two bases at once.

We regularly play Alexander vs Darius in Basic Impetus, good fun and quite well balanced. We would get 2 games of BI finished in an evening, so we swap armies after the first game. I think that on paper, the Macedonians are stronger, but the Persians seem to have the edge in victories in our games.

Phil.