"Impetus Rules???" Topic

I am trying HARD to break my current group from playing WAB….. I actually clicked a banner the other day and read about Impetus. I also downloaded the playtest rules and they look good. Does anyone have anything to add about the full set of rules?

This review by a TMP'r Hwrang.

link

Aren't they sorta-kinda DBA-ish?

a good way to get into it is to try the free basic impetus rules from the main site…then you can for 15$ download 2 complete armies(paper armies to print out and mount on card from bill ross…forgot name)…but I hear the main rules are 10 times better than basic impetus
I think they are much deeper tactically than dba, with dba I always felt like I was playing paper,scissors,rock- even basic impetus is much more satisfying to me than dba

Aren't they sorta-kinda DBA-ish?

Impetus is an element based game. That's where the similarities to DBA end.

I just got a copy – IMHO they're the best fast(er) play sets out there that also convey a good feel for the period – I am using them for War of the Roses

I particularly like the big-base / vignette concept, and the flexibility to have as many/few figures as you want (or can afford).

The Perry WorR range – (please guys release sooner than Xmas!) will be the perfect partner

Basic Impetus reminds me of a number of games, though it seems like much more than a grab-bag of other games' ideas, since the synthesis results in a very coherent whole instead of the hodgepodge you might expect.

Personally, I see the biggest influence from Volley&Bayonet, though Impetus is in no way a variant of V&B.

Like V&B, you have large stands, the concept of Disorder and Permanent Disorder (which in BI manifests itself as the loss of Impetus from taking Cohesion hits) and "roll a bunch of dice looking for 6's" approach to combat.

BI is a bit like FoG in that you accumulate hits which may or may not convert into actual "casualties", depending on a unit-quality based test. (The mechanism for this is both elegant and easy to play btw.) Also like FoG, Impetus has the concept of "impact" vs. "melee", though for my money Impetus handles the dichotomy better than FoG.

Full Impetus (which I don't have yet) adds some Warmaster-ish ways you can press your luck and push your troops harder, as well as higher level army organizational structures to help simulate the limits of C&C for various armies.

Thanks for that review. I ordered from On Military Matters recently and look forward to reading and trying the rules. I've never played Ancients regularly but have collected a pretty fair Gaul army and plan on Romans next.

Erik

A few more Impetus reviews:

Wargames Journal PDF link

The Rules Directory link

Cheers,
Scott

There is also a Yahoo group that supports the rules.

Dan

There is also the Impetus forum.

Thanks,

John

Discussion forum: impetus.forumsland.com

Yahoo group: link

Cheers,
Scott

Scott – thanks for those additional reviews. Helps a lot.

Erik

There are a fair number of battle reports on my site that may give you a feel for the game – link

Personally, I love the game, for many of the reasons mentioned, as well as the inherent simplicity in how units interact. I also love how different unit types really behave differently i.e. skirmishes actually skirmish, light horse harasses stuff, heavy foot is tough but rigid, etc…

JET

Just to pique my interest, why are you trying to break your group away from playing WAB?

for those familiar with both DBx and WAB: Impetus somehow feels like the best-of-both-world-choice in between. it is less fiddly than DBx, while the mechanics are much more strealinied. its not as much stone-scissor-paper as DBx and not as much "i have T 4, out of my way!" as WAB.

another big plus: irregular armies of warbands and impetuous knights are playable in Impetus.

the command and control system is a beauty too.

anyway, mostly i stand by what i wrote in above review.

hey, if you like it, more power to you.

I just don't like armies of "bases", so to speak, and I really like the gaming engine that WAB uses. I prefer to be able to remove individual casualties, too.

But there is no single set of rules that will answer everyone's desires and interpretations, so I refuse to get on the "which rule set is best" bandwagon.

They all serve different needs and interests, and in the end, it is YOU that they need to satisfy, not anyone else.

Respects,

WAB? Impetus? I enjoy them both a lot. Each has their own attractions and merits.

Not a DB anything man myself, but hey, each to their own….

Cheers,

Darrell.

I just don't like armies of "bases", so to speak, and I really like the gaming engine that WAB uses. I prefer to be able to remove individual casualties, too.

Interestingly, those are some of the very features that kept me from ever warming to WAB. On the other hand, the basing scheme and gaming mechanics employed in Impetus have proven to be a very good match for my own wargaming preferences.

But as you rightly suggest, 'vive la différence!' Besides, like Darrell, many gamers are perfectly happy playing both systems, and more besides.

Cheers,
Scott

I think it's a pretty good game and I'll play it occassionally but it's not going to take over from FOG as my main ancients game. I don't think D&P (the rules authors) are doing it any favours (in terms of worldwide popularity and acceptance) by the pricing, and by the fact that they have kept the original abbreviations for troop stats in Italian rather than translating them (so Heavy Cavalry is CP, Combat strenth is VBU, etc). Even though this is an Italian game, most of the worldwide wargaming market is English speaking, and the non-English sections of the D&P Impetus forum are very minor compared to the English ones.

With all due respect the abbreviations make complete sense. Italian is probably the easiest language to get a basic understanding of. And the use of common abbreviations means that non-English speakers can play with English speakers. And ultimately it is nice for once that English speakers got to accommodate other people then the other way around.

Cavalleria Pesante? Calvary Heavy

Cavalleria Leggera? Calvary Light

Cavalleria Media? Clavary Medium

Fanteria-> infantry

Carri di Guerra? War chariots

English is already related to Italian.

i did not say that DBx or WAB are rubbish. its more like that i see how players from both these systems could like Impetus. and thats a big plus.

(i myself play DBA quite a bit and i also like the occassional game of WAB at conventions. both good systems.)

and it gets better: basing would easily be made compatible somehow.

and for the language point: i totally agree with KTravlos. its great to have another language in. and 10 or so abreviations are really not *that* hard to get..

The rationale for keeping the Italian abbreviations was that there is already wide international "support" (the UK being a bit "late to the table") and it means that it is easy to draw up Army lists etc. using an internationally consistent format.

As KTravos says, it's not too hard to understand.

I think it's a pretty good game and I'll play it occassionally but it's not going to take over from FOG as my main ancients game.

Conversely, Impetus did take over from FOG as my main ancients game, and I have never looked back. "Different strokes," and all that!

Cheers,
Scott

"The rationale for keeping the Italian abbreviations was that there is already wide international "support" (the UK being a bit "late to the table") and it means that it is easy to draw up Army lists etc. using an internationally consistent format."

Yes, and if that internationally consistent format was English (as it is for every other set of wargames rules) I think it would be easier for these rules to be more widely accepted.

Look at the number of posts on the Impetus Forums to see which language the rules are being discussed in :
There are about 500 topics in English, compared to less than 200 in total on the four non-English Impetus forums.

are you *really* arguing that changing the abbreviations would make any difference?

Smacks of Anglo-Saxon particularism to me. Witness how Basic Impetus is the only Rule set that players willingly translate to other languages by themselves.

Impetus forum is an international forum and English is obviously the default language. As here we are all discussing in English, even if we are not all English or American (by the way there are sections in TMP for different languages).

Italian gamers for example mostly use the Impetus section in Dadi&Piombo forum and there are a German and a Spanish forum that host an Impetus section.

The reason to keep the italian codes derives from the fact that with BI people were already used to use those code. I have played for years at DBM and I know hundreds of Italian gamers that use KN or LH like codes with no problems (and they don't speak English). Army lists are plenty of French/Greek/English/Latin/Italian/Spanish/German… terms and never seen a wargamer refusing to learn what Condottiere o Psiloi (aaargh, a Greek name used to define a troop type!!) mean.

Anyway I agree with the fact that should have Impetus be an English product it would have become (more quickly, be patient it is just a question of time ;-) ) more accepted.
But the reason is not on the terms, but on the persons.
I mean, should I live in UK (or US) and should the playtesters, clubs that helped in developing the rules do the same, there would be many more demos at shows and more chances to see and promote the rules.
Said that I don't think that Impetus will become more popular than FoG. FoG has inherited the DBM community for several obvious reasons. Impetus is creating a community from scratch and D&P is far from being Osprey, Battlefront or Games Workshop.
Simply there are different kinds of rules out there as there are different kind of gamers. It is up to the gamer to find what satisfies him better, I just say "hey give a try to Impetus or to Basic Impetus (that is free!)"

"are you *really* arguing that changing the abbreviations would make any difference?"

Yes, I think it might make the rules more accessible worldwide, especially to beginners.
Lets say a beginner looks at some army lists. In DBM you have Regular Cavalry (Superior), in FOG Cavalry, Drilled, Armoured, Superior, Lancers, Swordsmen, in Impetus you have CP with VBU=5 (and other stats with Italian initials that I can't remember).
Which do you think makes more sense to a beginner ?

Put it this way – having the abbreviations in Italian certainly isn't going have helped worldwide sales, is it ?

"Witness how Basic Impetus is the only Rule set that players willingly translate to other languages by themselves."

What, are you saying that no-one has ever done this with another set of rules ?
And anyway, isn't that breaking copyright laws ?

Marshal Mark – Pricing?
FoG RRP £25.00 GBP
Impetus Euro28 – £25.00 GBP incp&p
Sure people are discounting FoG like crazy – why is that by the way? but you can't blame Impetus for over pricing.
As for the 'language' issue – ? What issue?
There is no non-english 'format'.
There are less than a dozen abbreviations – half of which work in English anyway:
CP-Cavalleria Pesante -Heavy Cavalry (No)
CM-Cavalleria Media-Medium Cavalry (Yes)
CL-Cavalleria Leggera-Light Cavalry (Yes
FP- Fanteria Pesante – Heavy Foot (No)
FL- Fanteria Leggera – Light Foot (Yes)
S – Schermagliatori -Skirmishers (Yes)
CG – Carri de Guerra – War Chariots (No)
CF – Carri de Falce -Scythed Chariot (No)
W – Wagenburg – Wagenburg (Yes)
T – Tiratori – Missile Troops (No)

not rocket science and no more confusing than the abbreviations used in any other set – and simpler than many as well.
If it isn't your favourite fine – but surely not for these reasons?
Guy

Okay – forgot VBU etc – because it is so transparent. No problem – unles you want it to be.
Besides its the game that matters – and I think Impetus is head and shoulders better as a game.

Does the pricing of Impetus really matter that much at the end of the day?

Think of all the money you have spent on lead. I bet it's significantly higher even in the smaller scales. If you enjoy the game and it works for you then pricing is not that much of a problem for a system that is innovative, dynamic and replicates warfare to a reasonably high degree.

Cheers,

Darrell.

"no more confusing than the abbreviations used in any other set – and simpler than many as well."
Of course it's more confusing to an English speaker to have parts of the rules not in English.

"If it isn't your favourite fine – but surely not for these reasons?"
No, that isn't the reason it's not my favorite. It doesn't affect my opinion of the rules at all. I just said that IMO it won't help the game to become popular worldwide. And there's not a lot of point playing a game if no-one else plays it.

"Does the pricing of Impetus really matter that much at the end of the day?
Think of all the money you have spent on lead….."

Yes, this is the rational argument, but the fact is, wargamers don't like spending money on rules, and when they do spend a lot on a rulebook (and Impetus is certainly at the high end of the scale) they like to get a lot for their money.
Compared to FOG, Impetus is £10.00 GBP more (and I'm talking about what you can buy a new copy for, not the RRP which is irrelevant) and you get less for the money (FOG is hardback with 144 pages compared to Impetus which is 56 pages and softback).

One of the reason for releasing Basic Impetus free is that you can then buy Impetus knowing what you are buying. Also you are not compelled to buy it as BI it is a ruleset on its own and there are many happy players that never passed to Impetus.
As for the cost, as I don't print in China, cannot do less then this, sorry. But gamers also don't need tens of supplements and can find many beta lists free on the web.

Ah, my Italian copy of FoG is priced 35 euros…

mmh, now that I check my English copy of FoG was priced 45 euros!!! Not to blame FoG for this but my bookshop!!! And this was the price in Italy. Still many gamers bought the rules at this price (45 euros for a rulebook not in your language with the chance to buy later the Italian version!!).
I think that if you like a game this at the end is very few cost compared to the miniatures you buy.

The money that i spent on FOG was wasted as most people in my local club are now moving away from them….the money i spent on Impetus was very well spent….2 more club members have ordered it and there are a couple more interested.

So noney well spent…

Have enjoyed every game of Impetus i've played….i found every game of FOG a drag…they are missing the fun aspect i think…

Losart….any news on the release date of Extra impetus 2????

Cheers Andy

That would be "Money"……

i do not believe the use of a few abbreviations is hurting sales. not at all. gi#ven that gamers are more than ready to spend money on things like "FoG", "DBMM", "DBA" i dont think crypticism is a problem. also i do not believe that "Base Unit Value (BUV)" would somehoe be easier to grasp. there is a difference in abstraction that the Marshals example does not show.

and the above list demostrates how simple the abbreviations are – as they are, that is.

the price issue – well, i believe Impetus is a bit expensive and i surely would have prefered a simpler layout and a cheaper price. but i can pefectly live with it as it is and hope Lorenzo gets a bit out of what i spend on the books.

Extra Impetus 2 is going to printer today. I think to have it back in a week, just few days before Derby. So I will bring some copies to Derby and will be available from the website just after. At Derby I plan also to leave some copies to Caliver.

That's great news, Lorenzo! I am very much looking forward to the release.

Cheers,
Scott

Compared to FOG, Impetus is £10.00 GBP GBP more (and I'm talking about what you can buy a new copy for, not the RRP which is irrelevant) and you get less for the money (FOG is hardback with 144 pages compared to Impetus which is 56 pages and softback).

To paraphrase the famous line, value is in the eye of the beholder. To cite a purely hypothetical example, a 172-page, hardbound, €25.00 EUR rule set that I personally find overly complicated and tedious to play would not be a very good value for me, while a 56-page, spiral-bound, €32.00 EUR rule set that I truly enjoy playing would be a very good value indeed.

Ironically, price also appears to have been one of the primary concerns of early FOG detractors:

TMP link
TMP link

Please note that I made the same 'value for money' point in those discussions about FOG. So why don't we just shake hands like gentlemen, and leave it at that?

Cheers,
Scott

The abbreviations seem easy enough.

Spiral bound and printed on card -it's a prince amongst rule sets!!!!

"Ironically, price also appears to have been one of the primary concerns of early FOG detractors:"

A quick look at those threads shows one main "FOG detractor" who started off by complaining that the rules cost $70. USD Well that would be something to complain about but since it was total bxxxxxx it's hardly a point worth making.

But I agree with your comments about value. Whatever you pay for a rulebook, if it gives a good game then the hours of playing make the cost pretty irrelevant. However, a quick glance over any threads on here about rules shows that wargamers in general don't like paying for rules. And as Impetus are one of the most expensive sets of rules (a quick look at Caliver books shows that they are the second most expensive ancients rules out of a hundred or so on there) , people are not going to buy them if they are just going to play occassionaly, or just to try out the game.

I'm not trying to make points against Impetus – as I first said I like it, and I've enjoyed the games I've played. I just think some of the decisions of the company have not helped it to gain popularity worldwide.

losart said "As for the cost, as I don't print in China, cannot do less then this, sorry."

So how come D&P can produce and sell a monthly magazine of what, about 50 pages (at a guess) for around £4, but can't produce a 56 page rulebook for less than £25.00 GBP

So how come D&P can produce and sell a monthly magazine of what, about 50 pages (at a guess) for around £4, but can't produce a 56 page rulebook for less than £25.00 GBP

Probably for many of the same reasons that Osprey can sell one of its Men at Arms series books for £9.99 GBP (not including postage), but chooses to sell FOG for £25.00 GBP (not including postage).

By the way, according to the D&P web site, the price for a single issue is actually €8.00 EUR (postage included) to Europe, €9.00 EUR (postage included) to the rest of the world: link

And the price for a single issue of D&P at Caliver books appears to be £6.00 GBP (not including postage): link

Just to compare apples with apples.

I'm not trying to make points against Impetus…

The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.

As Lorenzo mentioned previously, anyone who is interested can download the simplified version Basic Impetus at no charge: dadiepiombo.com/basic2.html

That way, they can try out the mechanics and see for themselves if the expanded, full-color, cardstock, spiral-bound print edition might be worth the investment , or alternatively they could just continue playing the abridged, free PDF version. It would be pretty difficult to find a better value than that.

Cheers,
Scott

"Probably for many of the same reasons that Osprey can sell one of its Men at Arms series books for £9.99 GBP GBP (not including postage), but chooses to sell FOG for £25.00 GBP GBP (not including postage). "

Yes, they choose to sell it at that price. Given the popularity of it they've probably got the pricing about right.
I was questioning Lorenzo who said he could not sell it any cheaper, which implies he would like to sell it cheaper if he could.
Anyway the FOG rules are over twice as big as a men-at-arms book and hardback compared to paperback, so £25.00 GBP compared to £10.00 GBP seems about right.
Impetus is about the same size as as D&P magazine and softback, so that's why I was comparing them. And yes, I was guessing at £4.00 GBP so thanks for correcting me. £6.00 GBP then. Still a lot less than the price of the Impetus rule book.

"The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks."
I've no idea what you mean, I'm not protesting about anything. In fact I'm all in favour of people playing Impetus – the whole point of my comments is that there might be more people playing (which surely you would like) if it was priced more in line with other rulebooks.

Yes, they choose to sell it at that price. Given the popularity of it they've probably got the pricing about right.

I imagine that Osprey's large-scale publishing and distribution networks, with printing and labor costs outsourced to China, also factor into the retail price for FOG.

Impetus is about the same size as as D&P magazine and softback, so that's why I was comparing them.

While the page count is indeed similar, Dadi & Piombo is saddle-stitched (stapled) and printed on relatively lightweight magazine stock, while the Impetus rulebook is wire-o bound and printed on much heavier card stock. In terms of print cost, those are very significant differences.

I've no idea what you mean, I'm not protesting about anything.

Except for the price of Impetus, of course.

Naturally, Lorenzo would be the appropriate person to comment further on the specifics of his publishing and pricing situation, if he chooses to do so.

That's it for me! Thanks for an interesting conversation.

Cheers,
Scott