"FOG Republican Roman Figure Scale" Topic

Ok, before I jump in and buy FoG, WAB or Medieval Warfare by Foundry by the late Terry Gore, which one of these sets of rules will allow me to purchase as few figures as possible to play as I have to buy both armies and paint them as well, and I dont have time to paint 1000 figures, more like 200 at most.

200 is just getting started for FoG.

100 per side is pretty healthy for WAB.

No idea about MW.

200 is just getting started for FoG.

Not true. 200 figures is a pretty good sized army in FoG. In many/most cases, it will be the 800 point "standard" army.

100 per side is pretty healthy for WAB.

100 figures is pretty small for WAB. Probably more like 150+. Even Age of Arthur armies are on the small side for WAB at approximatly 120 figures.

Medieval Warfare usually has 40-50 stands per army or more.

One thing to look out for is that Barbarian armies, no matter which rules set, require lots and lots of infantry. Usually 250 or more.

In all cases, you can scale the armies up and down as you like. I have been playing with the points system for FoG. I did 250 points with 1 field commander and 5 4 stand units. For Normans it was 2 units of cavalry (8 stands in all24 figures) 2 units of spear, (12 stands in all 48 figures) and a unit of skirmishers armed with bows with 6 stands or 12 figures. That's 60 infantry and 24 cavalry. 84 figures in all.

There is no one best rules set. It really depends on what you want to play.

WAB is the easiest to play and lots of people love it. Medieval Warfare is a fun game but has a real old school feel to it. FoG is the latest "best rules" on the market. Time will tell how well this will do. So far it is doing pretty darned well.

Hope that helps.

John

Sorry…not all stands are only 4 bases. Some are 6 in my list.

With Basic Impetus you need less than 200 figures for both armies and it is free at dadiepiombo.com/basic2.html

But I think much depends on how you like to base your figures.

WAB works with single based figures. If you prefer this choice go for it.

FoG uses DBx format bases, a standard (you can play also DBA with this basing)

Basic Impetus uses big bases that are a multiple of the above (to see how a Feudal army looks like in BI see link )

No idea of MW basing

What scale figures do you want to use and what type of battles? Much easier to answer your question if we know that first.

Ken

How about start with WAB and as you work up to bigger armies, go for a different set of rules. You could convert any basing issues.

MW is a good system, and it does give a good "feel" to battles. The mechanics are slightly more complicated than WAB (more math fewer die rolls).

MW is all about the stand size. Basically you can use as many or as few as you like, but there are standards to help designate the type of troop represented.

Typically you need fewer figures for skirmish and light infantry since there are fewer per stand.

So for example 6-8 stands of infantry is a good size for a "unit" of infantry. If they are heavy close order troops then you will use four figures per stand. Most medieval infantry will be 3 per stand. Light and skirmish would be 2 per stand.

Mounted units will be about 4-6 stands. Most will be 3 per stand, and lights will be two per stand (very few 4 per stand mounted units).

As for WAB, the system is a little more "gamey" IMHO. I play it, and we have some fun battles with it. It is just a very different game system.

Both are good, and you will have fun with either.

As far as figures go, I think WAB takes more low point value figures and fewer of the high point cost figures. For example a MW unit of knights will be 4-6 stands of 3 (12-18 figures) while the same unit in WAB would typically be 8-10 figures. However a unit of peasant spearmen in WAB might be 24-30 figures, and in MW it requires 18-24 figures.

Overall, I think you can get away with fewer figures using MW than WAB.

Also it depends on what you like to paint and collect skirmishers or heavy cav?

I don't know about FOG yet, so I cannot comment.

FoG armies are going to be 150 figures up so you are better off with another set of rules.

If you want minimum figures to paint, look at DBA which has armies as small as 24 figures.

"Not true. 200 figures is a pretty good sized army in FoG."

That may be true, but since he was talking about 200 *total*, not per side, 200 is anemic.

I must be running an expensive WAB army. Without super characters and monsters (for WFB), even 1000 points is a healthy WAB fight, and will come in close to 100 models unless you field a lot of peasants.

MW and FoG are stand/element based games. You don't have to conform to the suggested number of figures per stand for either of these rules sets. My older armies were built when I seriously played WRG 7th in tournaments. They conform (oh do they ever). But lately, with the larger, newer stuff I collect, I am more inclined to base fewer figures and make mini-dioramas. Thus, seldom do I put more than 2-3 figures, infantry or cavalry, on a standard base, whether it is 60mm or 40mm wide. In a tournament setting, the MW guys are pretty casual about things, so creativity is appreciated -- there are others who also do their own thing re: basing. FoG is just starting up, so I'd be a little careful about tweaking basing conventions, but if and only if you intend to play in tournaments (although years of tournament play has convinced me most players will adjust to anything, regardless the rules being played).

By my math, looking at the FoG Starter Armies (650 pts)…

HYW English…141 figures (foot) plus a camp (assumes 2 attendants per commander)
HYW French…32 Cavalry figs., 143 ft. plus a camp (assumes 6 figs per mob base)
Iberian (Ancient)…185 ft. 28 cavalry plus camp
Late Rep. Roman..109 foot. 28 Cavalry plus camp.

200 figures will not lead to a satisfactory battle in FoG. Looks like 300 is the entry point for most historical battles. (As I am currently painting French crossbows and smelly peasants, I am a bit sensitive on this subject.)

That may be true, but since he was talking about 200 *total*, not per side, 200 is anemic.

Oops! Missed that part!

I must be running an expensive WAB army. Without super characters and monsters (for WFB), even 1000 points is a healthy WAB fight, and will come in close to 100 models unless you field a lot of peasants.

Ah! 1000 points. Yeah that's probably about right. I think a "standard" tournament army is 1500 points…or maybe even 2000. That's why I thought 100 figures was a bit small.

FoG armies are going to be 150 figures up so you are better off with another set of rules.

Don't shy away from FoG because many folks want to play with large armies. Start small. I have already shown you a reasonable solution for a small game of FoG. It will scale to any size you want to play. Ditto for WAB or MW. In fact, MW/AW has a free set out there that is a watered down version of the rules. IMHO they play better than the full version. The free version is designed to be played on a kitchen tablle with just about 5-8 units per side.

John

Apophis, stick with DBA

Or try Shattered Lances. A three battle army; one infantry and two cavalry, would use about 40 figures for the Infantry battle; and about 27 x 2 = 54 cavalry for the remaining two battles. So, about 148 figs per side (if you count cavalry as two figs). And they are period specific for the Medieval/ Crusades period.

Oggie

I will be using 25's and basing is 2 figures on a 1x2 inch base, cavalry on a 2x2.

BTW anyone in the Kankakee, south chicagoland area know if anyone is playing FoG or WAB anywhere (store wise), I would like to join a regular gaming group of some type, doesnt matter what era. I can do ancients as well, I have a NK Egyptian army right now.

From what I have heard FoG can be played with 1 figure per stand. Really this is a vanilla, chocolate or strawberry question. Or Coke, Pepsi or RC.

I have some sample armies for WAB here.

3vwargames.com/gallindex.htm

WAB is my game of preference at the moment. But I will give FoG a try soon.

I looked at the "Starter Armies" for FoG a little more. They are not 650 pts. as I thought. There does not seem to be a strict point total for "Starter Armies" nor do the Companion books provide point totals for these "balanced" forces. They are all around 600 points (some over and some under). None are over 650, suggesting that might be the ceiling.

As the recommended tournament point totals differ depending on scale (650 pts for 25mm and 800 points for 15mm), this leads to some averages for "balanced" tournament-sized armies…

typical 15mm Tournament Army:
224 figures (12% cavalry)

typical 25mm Tournament Army:
182 figures (12% cavalry)

This assumes that the selected armies I sampled, HYW English and French, Late Roman, and Iberian, are representative. If anything, I may have selected high cost armies with fewer troops. This suggests very large armies from my perspective.

The Companion books refer to "Starter Armies", roughly 600 points, as an army to recreate "small" battles.

The game also suggests compulsory units required by armies. These exceed 250 points. Most seem to have roughly 450 points of compulsory units, but I did not do the math.

The game also suggests compulsory units required by armies. These exceed 250 points. Most seem to have roughly 450 points of compulsory units, but I did not do the math.

Who said anything about army lists?

Apophis:

E-mail me and I can put you in touch with a South Chicago gaming group. I've no idea what they play – I was not part of it – but a few guys from my old club also went to that group.

mark at the-severins dot com

Hi,

DBMM has both 100AP and 200AP versions in the back of the book for playing with smaller armies. Depending on the armies you could do 2 200AP armies with about 100 figs a side. Irr barbarian types could be up to 200 figs a side.

Advantage of this is that a) you can use the armies for BBDBA, b) if you liked the rules you could upgrade to larger points values and c) If you didn't like the rules you could still get into FOG or MW as they use the same basing standards.

Just an idea.

G^is,
JohnG

Oh!

And (just because it is my favorite period), you could do 2 200AP DBMM Wars of the Roses armies. This gives you 2 matched armies, interesting period, and enough figs to do a full sized FOG, MW and DBMM army if you wanted.

You could do same with Roman civil wars, Greek city state hoplite battles, etc.

G^is revido,
JohnG

As JohnG says above if you pick your armies carefully two smaller armies can often be combined into one larger one.

Another period that allows this is the El Cid era in Spain.

DBA, DBMM, FoG and AW/MW all use the same basing. The same basing can be used for WAB, Impetus, and Mighty Armies Ancients (forth coming) with a little bit of creativity.

I have found basing to be the grand paper tiger of wargaing. Outside of tournaments basing often is less critical than rules authors would have us believe.

"Outside of tournaments basing often is less critical than rules authors would have us believe."

The real problem of basing is just a question of compatibility in order to allow gamers not to change their already based armies. It has very little to do with game mechanics and even less with scale.

When I wrote Impetus I wanted larger bases to reflect a more the visual image of some formations as you can place how many figure you feel good for your units (creating wedges, more ranks etc). I made this by doubling what is WRG standard (commonly adopeted also by Armati, FoG etc for the same reason) with the advantages that nowdays 28mm can fit better than into a 6cm frontage base (BTW 6cm frontage was adopted thinking of the old 25mm figures).

If you play Impetus with deeper bases nothing change but if you don't write a specific measure in the rule book the gamer gets paranoid.
Morale: every ancient rule set works without problems in every scale and with every basing. The problem are competitions where competitive gamers can argue even on how the bases are thin!! ;-)

"If you play Impetus with deeper bases nothing change but if you don't write a specific measure in the rule book the gamer gets paranoid.
Morale: every ancient rule set works without problems in every scale and with every basing. The problem are competitions where competitive gamers can argue even on how the bases are thin!"---

Yes this is why I base for how I play and what looks good and is the cheapest way to get an army together, as I said I seem to always have to provide both sides of a battle.

I also like measurments done using base width as the ground measuring standards for my games, I try to convert rules that use 'inches & metrics' to base width measurments, more uniform and allot more standard for me, than say DBx or GW standards.

It like ice cream -- they're all good.

No idea of MW basing

Just about everything works: DBx, Foundry basing. Most of my figures are individually mounted for WAB. I just have a variety of different sabots for different rules. MW is very forgiving.

----

A lot depends on what you are trying to do and what you want to model. FOG is a "top down" game. WAB and MW are both "ground up" games.

For the fewest figures: WAB. I have found MW requires more figures for an army than WAB. Plus WAB is easily played at different point levels and can be used for skirmish games.