"How Long Until It's a Failure?" Topic

Other: Reject the idea that I should judge the success or failure of someone else's hobby project.

etotheipi, you clearly don't know the same group of gamers I do! :)

At some point it's clear that someone else's attempt didn't pan out. It's kind of subjective but you can tell when the wind is out of the project's sails.

I am not rude enough to pass judgment.

Success and failure are inherently subjective criteria. Even an obhective criterion such as "400 Prussians in winter uniforms painted to the three colour standard" is based on the subjective framework that there should be 400 and they should be to the three colour standard, and so on.

I am not a big ACW buff, but I have a set of ACW generals to go with my skirmishers. I am missing Longstreet. I gave it to my uncle, who reenacts as Longstreet. Because of that, I wanted to paint all the horses the "right" colours. For generals with multiple horses during the war, I picked the horse that would be easiest for me to paint. Some I couldn't find. I did whatever level of research I did (again, not an ACW buff), including soliciting sources from reenactors.

Success? Failure?

Not that am in the habit of judging others' projects as successes or failures, but time strikes me as the wrong criterion if I were. Some projects are supposed to be done in days or weeks, some are expected to take years from the go.

A better question might be how long someone has to let a project gather dust before you write it off as abandoned.

I know the guys I game with pretty well. If they don't have a project done in a year it ain't getting done.

Actually Eto, I was thinking of the Battle of Salamis. In the vote held afterward, every Greek ship captain thought that his own contribution was most important--but they all listed the same man for second place.

Much easier to see when someone else's project has gone awry than to know when our own have. I did a massive reorganization when I retired, but I think anyone close to me could have spotted the dead ends and overlaps years before.

Last, good point, though it raises the question of level of activity. How long would a project have to gather dust before you'd declare it dead? And would tossing another bag of unpainted figures on the stack every six months or once a year constitute proof of life?

In general, it is best to let someone else decide if their project is a failure or not. I've been working on more than one project for years and a figure hasn't touched a table yet, but I am still plugging away a little at a time.

I was thinking of the Battle of Salamis

Ah … so you see the hobby as a single event under a unified command where everyone's top-level objectives are the same (stay afloat, kill the Persians)? Oh! The wisdom of crowds!

Etotheipi +1. I really detest self-appointed "authorities" in any hobby.

"…so you see the hobby as a single event under a unified command where everyone's top-level objectives are the same…"

Or that no one really intends to buy 500 figures, prime 100 and paint 20, but it's easier to delude ourselves about our own projects while being clear-sighted about those we're not emotionally attached to.

Note that "authority" has two pertinent meanings. No one has or should have power over other gamers except as we yield it to hold games and keep them going. But--real life example--the wargamer who has designed and played far more games in far more periods is also an "authority." I listen to such, and when he tells me "your unit frontages are too wide for your table and will restrict maneuver" I pay attention. I may or may not do as he recommends, but I'm glad to have his input. Is he the sort of self-appointed authority you detest, Dal? If so, where do you go for advise?

I didn't say I despise any authority.

I was pointing out that you were comparing an overstatement about a "vote" taken 3,000 years ago from a set of military commanders under a unified command with common goals to a bunch of hobbiests with no central authority and individual personal top-level goals.

Or that no one really intends to buy 500 figures, prime 100 and paint 20

Really? You have data on that? I mean, its a great false dichotomy, but how would you know?

Whether or not your global absolutist statement about a group of people you can't enumerate is true, Everybody who buys a big bucket of figures isn't emotionally committed to painting them all. Believe it or not, some people start into a hobby start into a hobby with the intent of seeing if they like it or not. In that case, the situation you describe could be a success.

Tons of other reasons why people might start a project a certain way without being committed to your vision< of why they are doing it or what an acceptable outcome is.

but it's easier to delude ourselves about our own projects while being clear-sighted about those we're not emotionally attached to.

Ah, I see, also no one is more critical of others than they are of themselves.

No one is not emotionally attached to their purchase because they only got them to go along with the crowd (I must have grossly misinterpreted what you ahve said about 40K plauers in the past. Apparently they are commited to each army and not just blindly changing things up when Their Masters(TM) tell them to.)

Note that "authority" has two pertinent meanings.

Three actually, but that may be a linguistic difference. </pedantry>

Is he the sort of self-appointed authority you detest, Dal? If so, where do you go for advise?

No. I think you know that, Robert, just from the context. Someone who freely shares knowledge is good value and, fortunately, not as rare as they once were.

I'm referring those who try to tell people what they must do to pursue a hobby "correctly". Who set goals that others must try to reach, who pass judgement- usually misinformed- on other people's efforts. Who arbitrarily set "pass" and "fail" criteria for others to meet.

The type of arrogant <SNIP> who believe they have the right to tell people how to enjoy their hobby "properly".

Hence the

self-appointed "authorities"

Sorta missing my point, Eto, Dal. The Hobby Police will not go around confiscating crashed projects on the basis of this, or any, poll. But it does give me a sort of judgement of my peers on whether I'm deluding myself about several of my own projects.

You notice that what I have NOT done is post that there is One True Way, or a single suspense date to rule them all. I've asked my peers how they regard success and when a project has passed from ongoing to delusional. Instead, I'm getting verbally chastised for raising the questions. I bet you guys are a terror on fashions and movie critics, let alone book reviews.

robert piepenvrink, I didn't say anything about anyone, including you, exerting authority over anyone WRT their gaming.

I pointed out that your comparsion between opinions expressed by military commanders after Salamis and random people in a hobby expressing opinions about success or failure of other people's personal hobby activities is flawed.

In the Battle of Salamis, the other commmanders had a basis for evaluating each other – the central command authority and common top-level goals that I cited. None of us has any basis for establishing success or failure criteria for others' hobby projects.

Since you seem to enjoy not reading others' posts and making up what their opinions are (strong parallel to making up success or failure criteria for others' projects … a trend), this

I bet you guys are a terror on fashions and movie critics, let alone book reviews.

is a great bit of just making stuff up out of nowhere. It's an excellent example of the Strawman Fallacy – if someone questions your orthodoxy in any way, you seem to feel free to make up anything negative about them and they act like they actually demonstrated that behaivour or said those things.

If you feel like denyng this, please quote the part of this discussion where I said you want to rat people out to the Hobby Police or invoked your own One True Way.

Considering the shelf life of our gaming hobby, I don't believe that any project is really a failure even if put aside for a long period of time. The project was at some point interesting enough to spark a purchase and some work so it did fulfill a goal. Projects can also be brought to the surface again and/or recycled into something else of interest.

I reject the idea that a project can be a failure due to time. I have projects that have been on hiatus for a decade or more, they are not failures they are paused while I wait for some more inspiration, an opponent or simply because I have been distracted by something new and shiny but I come back to them just like my napoleonic Russians, I get through two or three units and get bored painting the same uniform repeatedly so I put them away, do something else then come back to them, often a year or more later, the longest gap was 12 years! It's not a failure it's an ongoing project with an indistinct end point.

OK, Robert, I did misread your intent. But Fitzovich says it for me:

Considering the shelf life of our gaming hobby, I don't believe that any project is really a failure even if put aside for a long period of time.

I've got 15mm Byzantines that I started in the early 90's. They've been blooded in a few battles and haven't had a trot for about 10 years- and they still aren't "finished". I've got some Mongol horse archers that I have been adding to the army in small units, as the mood took me (a great change of pace from the lace on SYW figures).

So don't look at your projects as failures, mate. Look at it as a necessary hiatus of indeterminate length.

Having been a member of two clubs where someone tried to "organise" the club to fit with what they wanted to do- down to "suggesting" that I needed to rebase my figures for his preferred rules (and I think you can guess my response to that "suggestion"). It's a sore point, mate, because nothing kills a decent club as quickly as an "organiser".

I had a box of 15mm Galleys. I had 8 of them, and was able to get 6?more from the original guy in Belgium. I asked on TMP about them, and he liked the cut of my gib. 😄

So, I had these models for 30 years. And then a friend in my group got sick of hearing me bitch about them, and offered me a nice sum of money on the spot.
6 months later they appeared on the table with Old Glory galleys.

I ask you. Is 30 years a "failure"? 😄

Agree with Fitz Jamie and John,
Projects, like hope, spring eternal.
I just painted up 2 kriegfischkutter ships I got three years ago because they were on sale.
I knew I would need them at some point. : )

Joe

Are you not familiar with the phrase, "Work in Progress"?