"Have Wargamers Become Wimps?" Topic

Nope, playing what you prefer rather than what the cool thing is, shows strength.

If the in thing is complicated rules and you like simple rules but won't play simple rules due to peer pressure then that is not strong.
Going against peer pressure and standing up for what you believe is not wimpy..

As opposed to the mighty thewed, raw meat-eating barbarian warriors that we used to be?

domeafavour

It's the unhealthy food at the shows.

With a move to skirmish and plastic and 15mm I have to say yes

The boxes are getting lighter all the time

This implies that games you need a whole evening to play one turn are a GOOOD THING.

Hainna or no
OFM

How about the dreaded "Real Life Priorities" aspect?

Gracias,

Glenn

God and Country, Family and Friends,

In that order, and that order always.

Then War Games!

Work? – A necessary evil…

Answer to the original question: no, we've become much smarter and realized extreme detail doesn't necessarily give a better feel to the period and simple means more can be played.
--
Tim

Potential gamers are the wimps and companies out there seem to be more interested in making new gamers than keeping the old.

@Ditto: I would love some detail at least.
New games and new editions seem to have as little as they possibly get away with.
Trying not to offend the potential idiots, pardon me, customers with asking them to think about actually playing the game.
Cannot make them work at all; they will get upset aand stomp off to an even stupider, for numb-skulls, alleged game.

I like a game with some meat.
Many newer games and editions are completely anorexic!

We respect the sacrifice of those that serve.

We understand the cost of ego and empire.

We deplore political correctness.

We ask the questions reporters are incapable of.

We understand the relationship of Military History and Moral Philosophy.

We see the Fnords.

We wish for what could have been, what should have been and what shall be.

We envision the impact of technology on society.

We debate minutiae of guns, gear and garments with more knowledge and expertise than those 'Reality Fashion' shows.

We can differentiate Hollywood history from real history.

We understand basic tactics, the operational art and ther principles of strategy.

We share.

We are the First Nerd, the Jock with brains and the Geek that came before all. We laid the first mindfield against arrogant ignorance and ignorant arrogance.

"We lost the battle at 5 o'clock and won it back again at seven!"

Hmmm… How about some empirical evidence? Back in 1983 when I went to my first Historicon, I administered 17 wedgies in a period of 7.5 hours. That makes for a WPH of 2.27. Not Hall of Fame numbers, but very respectable. Last year I was only able to provide 4 wedgies in a 3 day period. That is a paltry WPH of 0.17. I conclude that wargamers are actually becoming much less wimpy and able to protect themselves better today than ever before.

By oving towards games with less figures, I can game a much wider variety of genres and periods. I woudl also suggest that small scale actions are vastly more frequent than the huge set piece battle.

So where have all these supposedly wimpy gamers been "crying for simpler rules"? I haven't ever seen that at all. Saying they ENJOY simpler rules, yes. bUt crying about it. Absurd premise and poll. But fun to see the results…

I say they have become wimpy not because of rules. Its because practically every gamer I know carries more snack food than minis to a gaming session.

No. Shorter games and fewer figures means there are external constraints that were not there before.

No. They have always been wimps!

I think it is a questio of time and cost.

It takes time to paint up large armies and we ALWAYS have to many figures to paint as it is. Then, the time to play a game with busy schedules. With the cost of figures rising -I see some sites where even 10mm are 75 cents per figure – it is more cost effective to do skirmish level games, especially if you want to do 28mm.

No. They have always been wimps!

Never confuse my laziness for wimpyness.
There are a couple of boneheads that have made that mistake. Especially the one that my sister slapped the handcuffs on afterward.

Critterement

SMC1

That in itself sounds pretty wimpy.
Sicking your SISTER on them??

The premise is flawed. Wanting better rules and fewer figs isn't a bad thing.

You kids and your lazy, wimpy rules and plasic figures. Back in the ol' days we'd have to read 4000 pages of rules in 10 feet of snow…uphill…push around huge, heavy blocks of real lead (poisoning us, no less), one half of a players turn taking an entire weekend. Dice…if we had them…were made of solid granite..and were only one sided! And all this, we had to play, in a dark cave, in constant danger from marauding, man eating, saber-toothed-marsupials (did I mention, in the snow…ten feet…high)!

That in itself sounds pretty wimpy.
Sicking your SISTER on them??

No she just cuffed him after the fact. She and another off duty deputy were with me when the miscreant started the trouble. He was literally stunned that the two women with me were deputies and he was facing charges.

Critterement

SMC1

Yup.

Of course they have become wimpier. Remember the old days when it took several days to finish even the most trivial skirmish? Now they want it done in two or three hours. How about rules? They were long, tedious, and had enough charts to make an engineer cry for mercy. Now everybody wants simple rules that are easy to understand. Then we have the miniatures. There were some good sculpters, but most were kinda ugly and only in one pose. Nowadays you can build a large army with good sculpts and in a variety of poses and at a decent price. Wargaming wasn't an adventure it was a job.

I prefer "quick and agile", rather than "wimpy".

If you are going to call me a wimp, I'll have to ask you to step outsidde. My sister wants to talk with you, and she gets upset when people call her little brother names.

By the logic of Angel Barracks at the beginning, then I am an extremely strong person because I eschew the mainstream games today and stick to my old favorites. Therefore I proudly proclaim I LIKE Empire. I PREFER Command Decision. I WISH WRG Ancients was back in vogue. And I hold in contempt game systems like…. well, let's not name names.

I'm wimp. Always have been and probably always will be.

Wargaming has nothing to do with it.

I'm wimp. Always have been and probably always will be.

That from the guy with psycho horses.

I began wargaming when men were men and giants strode the earth. The first set of rules I played could be written on two pages. But today I have played rules of three OR MORE pages! Manliness still exists, but in moderation.

well, let's not name names.

Well, you wimped out at the last moment… so close.

Gracias,

Glenn

Nothing "wimpy" about simpler rules (just look at some of the "old school"). I do find the constant need to produce supplements, scenario books, and oodles of glossy kitsch to a set of rules mildly annoying. And the lack of said glossy extras being taken as a sign that the rules are "dead". I remember when I was young actually reading some history books to get ideas for scenarios. Spoonfed youngsters these days…. :)

The question wasn't whether games were wimpier, but rather are wargamers. Yes, I think so. The often represented desire to spend less time playing and using fewer figures somehow doesn't seem to portray the same dedicated, hard-core gamers of my youth. And we are being asked to compare the near or distant past with the present as I read it.

Hearing of gamers who put out naked lead, or "don't want to think, just want to roll dice and drink beer", and can't be troubled to plan and execute a scenario of some depth I find to be less worthy of my respect than my old peers. The folks who put on the magnificent games at conventions like Duke and Der Alte Fritz are a rarer and rarer commodity these days. To our collective loss IMHO. Sorry if anyone is annoyed by this. We were asked our opinions.

I'm in agreement with 21eRegt.
I've put on big events, but I have had to streamline rules for simplicity's sake since I run these events single-handedly.
And I try to emulate my inspiration: The massive, 1,000+ figure events I see at HMGS conventions, events like…
Market Garden in 15mm spread out over seven massive, linked boards circling a room;
Helms Deep in 28mm 1-to-1 scale with all Mithril figures;
The climax of "Saving Private Ryan" in 268mm on a town board meticulously copied from the film;
The attack on Versaille in 28mm with the palace, surrounding neighborhood (houses with wet gutters, people) and the palace gardens.
Grand stuff, and deserving of an appreciative audience!

I tend to think that there are many more people gaming, and the majority expect things made well, ready made.

The question seems to be more 'are people less willing to put more effort into making games possible, whatever the state of rules or figure availability', and I'd think the same number of folk are, just their numbers are small in comparison to the number playing overall.

Doug