"What Effect Will AT-43 Have On The Hobby?" Topic

In my opinion the game itself will probably have only a minor effect on the hobby.

The technology which allows the creation of reasonable quality pre-painted figures at a reasonable price will have a major effect.

I don't think that AT-43 in itself will have any effect.

Several manufacturers are moving in this direction, and these may well be the front runners at the moment, but others will soon catch up!

If they are reasonably priced I am certainly interested (as I get less and less time to paint). Lets face it thought they are not the first pre-paints and they wont be the last!

Well let's see, we've already tried to get new people into the hobby by offering pre-painted miniatures of easily recognizable licenses figures with everything the players needed to know written on their base. What long-term impact did that have on the hobby?

A few weeks back, I was introduced by this website to a that infamous letter written by Foundry's owner about the flow of people into and out of this hobby. Despite all the controversy regarding Foundry's pricing associated with it, a lot of what he said makes sense.

The same effect as EM4, Heroscape, Clix, Pirates of the Spanish Main,Star Wars, D&D and playing with unpainted figures. Not to mention painting services.

If anything I think the effect will be a positive one. More people will find it easier to get into the hobby.

I know I would love pre-painted Ancients at affordable cost.

My bet is minor, positive. I know there is a person or two out there who might plonk down the cash for this style of game, but would NEVER want to assemble and paint an army.

The game will fail, the technology will continue to improve and more minis will be pre-painted to a high level of quality.

i think the poll choices should have extra choices, ranging from monumentally good to monumentally bad.
i thnik it is a bad thing for several reasons.
1. this completely finished game in a box doncept i feel makes it more akin to a board game.
2. im just waitng for the"just goes to prove, its not a proper wargame" from the historical wargamer.
3. it doesnt help bridge the divide between between historical and scifi gamer.
4. having two sons of my own, i know how hard it is to get new blood into the hobby and i am preparing for the "look dad we dont have to paint miniatures", oh ,and it doesnt matter if we tread on them we can buy some new ones"theyre only cheap.(its not gonna help me at all)
5. it will only get a small amount of people into the hobby, and the crossover into historical "new blood" will be even less.
nostradamus would have been proud.
(ive got loads of mechwarrior myself, bought for extremely low prices, i picked these up just after Wotc, stiffed theyre followers and started annexing booster ranges, much to my benefit i may add)
just my two cents FWIW

IMO nothing. What is killing the gaming industry is computer games. As the computer games get better and better, you're going to have people play those rather than with miniatures.

<<AT-43 promises to break into new markets…>>

If the author means that people will use some AT-43 minis in 40K games as proxies for GW figs; or in Star Wars Minis game or SST as new troop types or proxies; or the occasional D&D DM using an AT-43 fig as a monster – then the author is correct.

If the author implies that non-gamers will flock to the hobby in droves – he is simply wrong!

If you are not predisposed to our particular affliction of nerd-dom, neither this product or any other will instill it.

If you are not already "in the club" so to speak, ie already visiting hobby shops – you will simply not be exposed to the game.

Games like Heroscape with "real" production capability and mass market distribution are more likely gateway products to the hobby as your nephew (the unrealized game nerd) will see it in Wal-mart and want it for Christmas.

It still looks cool and will move the industry another peg towards prepainted being the rule rather than the exception for games in wide hobby games distribution.

There will always be the hard core small companies making metal figs for old school enthusiasts.

I'm always entertained by those in the hobby that believe they have the transforming idea.

I am shocked at how little what I do has changed in thirty years. I still look for a set of rules I enjoy, I still buy unpainted lead, I still spend hours and hours painting them, and I still seek players for my games.

I'm a historical gamer. How does this change my approach to the hobby? Not one bit. While I applaud the work of all those who work to improve miniature wargaming, a little less bombast would be nice.

Kevin

[shakes Magic 8 Ball]- Ask again later.

I optimistically put down minor effect. Prepainted has been done before (EM-4, Clix, et al) and will be again soon (Mongoose) and I haven't seen anything Earth shattering in effect other than more figure choices in the market.

@moonfleetminis: So, you are responding to those who define "the Hobby" as being "historical miniatures wargaming" only.

I see fantasy and sci-fi as being equally valid branches of the hobby of miniatures wargaming. This game will do little to bring anyone into historicals, but then neither does Warhammer, clix etc. If you don't like history you won't be drawn into historicals.

If you are interested in historicals but not painting etc then something like FoW with prepainted might suck you in.

I think better computer games are what is really killing the hobby. Why waste all that time painting and modeling when you can just flip a switch and be playing.

Miniatures gamers are an odd fusion of modeler and wargamer. Wargamers will be happy with computers or boardgames. Modelers will be happy to model. It is a rare bird who wants to do both.

No effect at all.

The real deciding factor is not going to be the miniatures, but the rules and the background. If the rules stink and the background boring then it doesn't matter how great the prepainted miniatures are.

No license, mediocre quality and overpriced == little to no affect.

If it does have an effect, it may be poor grammar in its detractors.

I don't know, it might interest more kids in the hobby who wouldn't have done so otherwise. 40K gets lots of people playing games. I even see kids from the Bronx coming into Manahattan to play 40K (although I don't know how they afford it). The only people I saw playing 40K five years ago were rich nerdy white kids.

I don't think that the old school-assemble-paint-play-from-scratch wargamer is going to blink twice at this stuff.

it remains to be seen, like other things (e.g. pre-painting) as far as the fluff goes it's not really that new – Necrons, VOR Union and perhaps a bit Red Star / Neo-Soviet – hopefully I'm wrong

@dave crowell,whilst you have some very valid points, i must beg to differ on the warhammer statement.
i worked as a shop manager for nigh on ten years for a company with the biggest high street wargaming presence(dont want to say the name, cos theyrll all be out in force), and during that time i saw quite a few customers move into historical gaming,customers who would otherwise, without the shop , probably would not have known about wargaming. also i have been attending several wargames shows this year in a business capacity, and seen a number of "my old customers", i also "grew-up" on "that company", and my passion is for napoleonics(of which i have many). i dont know if this was just "my shop" as i can only speak from my experience. i have also met several historical miniature manufacturers who have, some may say "the jaded past"
just my experience
FWIW

Based on my experience with being a warlord for Wizkids, I'd have to say none. These things don't act as gateway drugs. If you start a kid on a lame, pre-painted game, they will never graduate to a real game.

For this to have any noticeable effect, it would have to be sold in Walmart or some such (for much cheaper and with kid-friendly factions). People with a predilection for this sort of thing have already found the LGS.

OTOH, I'm looking forward to the game.

I think that it's effect is going to have a lot to do with how easily it is available and how much support it gets at the local level. If it is something that will be easily available to local retailers in decent quantities along with some sort of support from Rackham in the form of company supported demo teams or something similar it stands a decent chance. If it is just thrown out there with nothing in the way of company support it will fail quickly.

Grunhornet wrote: "IMO nothing. What is killing the gaming industry is computer games."

Except the gaming industry isn't dieing!

Judging by the amount of products available to us the hobby is in a better state than it's ever been. And in my personal experience there's more people playing now than ever before as well .

I think the effect will be minor if anything. I think there are three basic types of people in this hobby.
1. those who like to paint and model figures
2. those who like to play games with painted and modeled figures.
3. those who just like to play games and do care what the army looks like.. go to your local game store and see all the unpainted armieson the table top on any given Saturday.

I think people in groups 2 and 3 may find intrest in this game, only if it is a good game. If its not a good game then its going to die a quick death and figures will be bought cheaply off the discount racks for proxie figures.

I worked for Wizkids as a sculptor for almost 4 years. I started when the company was in its birth, was with it through the hayday when they were huge and got laid off during the fall. If it were just about prepainted miniatures they would be still kicking butt.. its about a good game..and if you dont put one out the prepaints will fail no matter how nice they are.

I really dont see a company like GW doing prepaints, as GW is a hobby company and its just as much about painting and modeling figures as it is about playing the game. Yes they may produce more high quality plastic kits and miniatures..but your still going to have to glue them together and paint them to play with them..or not :)

I'm of the mind that if you're at all interested in miniature gaming than you'd already be in the hobby.

There are many, myself included, that will probably pick up quite a few figures if they look good to use alongside figures I've already painted for various games.

Other than the new option to buy prepainted figures, of which only people already in this hobby would likely do, than I really don't see the big hooplah.

Will they be doing Portuguese Napoleonics anytime soon? What about American militia of the AWI? If not, AT-43 won't be having any effect whatsoever on my part of the hobby. I guess I'm in the wrong hobby. I must learn to like this sci-fi stuff.

It might bring some new people into the hobby, some current
people might buy AT-43 to try the game, or to use the minis for their existing games, but I don't think it'll have any impact. People who collect and paint minis will still do just that and aren't likely to be lured away by a few "tabletop" quality painted palatic minis.

Are there any pictures avaialble to see what they look like?

From reading the Battlegames article, the main effect they were proposing was the new outlets they thought they would be able to distribute this game through. Their plan is to sell this through supermarkets, and other non-hobby related stores. It's true that anyone already going into a hobby store is probably not going to have their head turned by this, but possibly, if they really can get a "game in a box" distributed in all the retail outlets toy soldiers can't touch, it's possible they will bring people into the hobby.

Still, it's not like you see Axis-and-Allies in the frozen food section currently, so this business model may be a little suspect.

True, autos da fe, and who could engender more markets than Hasbro? D&D and Star Wars minis aren't on the shelves at the Kwik-e-Mart, so how would Rackham pull it off?

The poll said "wargaming in general". I think if anyone was affected by this, it would be GW. Over the last ten years, their target demographic has shifted from college-age to high schoolers (or younger). I can't imagine haw many little darlings got mommy or daddy to buy them a space marine starter box, only to be discouraged by a) having to assemble them b)having top paint them, and c) not having them turn out like the pretty pictures on the box. GW them looses further sales to this kid, an the initial sale to Kid B, whom Kid A sells his half-painted minis to.

The question here REALLY is, will AT-43 close the divide between CMG *competition gamers*, and 'legitimate', paint-your-own, scenario-driven wargamers. Nobody spends good time painting up an ancient German warband because they are the 'army to beat' this season, they do it because they have a historical interest in them. In my opinion, it's the constructed, point-driven competetion mentality that REALLY seperates the two factions.

~Mike

A poll choice is missing: 'Huh?' I hadn't heard of AT-43 before (which isn't necessarily a criticism, it just may mean I'm clueless). I had to do some searches and it was surprising how little there was out there about this game, either on Rackham's web site or here on TMP.

I voted 'Minor effect'. I think pre-painted miniatures will have a huge impact on this hobby at some point. It's possible they already have, depending on how you define "this hobby".

But … I'm concerned Rakham may not have what it takes to supply the product that breaks the marketplace open. Their web site isn't even a "dot com" -- rackham.com is somebody's web site about their cat, for crying out loud. Their "dot FR" site has "coming soon" links to add translations for languages spoken by two countries ADJACENT to Rackham's native country.

Figure quality, game system quality, price … the marketplace is rather demonstrably elastic as far as these go, so I didn't bother to research these factors as far as AT-43 goes.

So we'll see.

The problem with pre-painted minis is that they look the same, more or less, to everyone elses. No individuality, whereas painting up your own minis adds character to the minis.

Open your eyes Rabban! wiz kids and there pirates are in Target and walmart and the WOTC figs are moving into the Mega-stores. I Have been playing games for 35 years and I know several things are certain: Having been to Fall in and Historicon and a ton of other historical and sci-fi/fantasy cons is this, In my experience Historical Gamers do very little to further this hobby! They may try to get a small group of kids involved but most of them do not stick with it. The companys that are doing this pre-painted ready to go stuff will be what keeps the hobby going. As its ready to play and can be stored in a plastic grocery bag on a shelf with no worries about the models being broken or scratched. I have seen at least a dozen people in the last 2 years start as pre-made players and end up as modeler painters.

None. thiers is not a new approach… Their product might be better, but if the rules are "Confrontationesque" and the translations is "Rackhamesque", then it will bore people out of thier minds…

The Confrontation figs are big seller over here, but the game is not catching up anywhere but France (I've seen it played in Mexico, U.S. and Spain by reduced groups and there was no "huge exodus from the known systems" when the new Confrontation rules book came out).

So, it will have no impact UNLESS the mechanics are REALLY GOOD or the figures are really WELL painted.

Other than that, I might try it for the Neo-Sovs/Metabaronesque figs… If the price is right…

Anyone happens to know what will be the price mark for a pack?

"Wiz kids and there pirates are in Target and walmart and the WOTC figs are moving into the Mega-stores."

My only experience of Hasbro CMGs in big retailer outlets is Star Wars Revenge of the Sith expansion, which was in WalMart (and maybe Target, but there is not one near me, so that one might have slipped by me) concurrent with the movie release. I have never seen WK *miniatures* in superstores, only Pirates CCCG (which is a technicality, as it sold as trading cards).

I meant that Hasbro's superstore saturation is far from complete, so I fail to see how a comparitively small-potatoes opperation like Rackham is going to make such inroads. Maybe they are simply not interested in carrying CMGs?

~Mike

I missed two poll options:

- What's AT-43?

and

- What's "Battlegames"?

The munchkins with the attention span of a flea will jump in for the duration of… oh, perhaps a television commercial, just as they have for every other gaming "flash in the pan", then will move on to the next new thing, and continue to do so, at least until they are mature enough to discover the faint stirrings in their loins that are encouraging them to propagate their part of the species.

Actual gamers will continue on relatively unmolested.

It amazes me how people can claim "xx" years experience in the hobby and "know" so little.

Allen

I'm sure that it's been said before here but I'll say it again. I don't think this game will shake up the industry, but it is a sign of a movement that I think is going to take hold. If the right game comes along I'm sure it will do well. Prepainted NON-collectible games I think are not entirely a bad thing.

As a long time gamer with lots of gamer friend, I know there is one thing that we have less of these days – TIME.

Prepainted minis games address this. If you have a limited amount of time to spend on gaming, time that is usually borrowed from your kids, friends, family, job, school, whatever, then the ability to buy prepainted and perhaps even preformed units and get them from box to table is a huge plus for these folks.

You can always change the paint jobs if you don't like them.
Besides, for the majority of the minis gamers out there, the prepaints are as good if not better paint jobs than they themselves can or do manage.

Hardcore gamers will continue to do what they have for years. But if the hobby is to continue in the face of much more dazzling hobbies, most of which have already been mentioned here, it needs to have quicker, easier, more accessible ally to bring 'em in. If you bring them, then ol' gamers like me and many here will be happy to show 'em how to really do it.

-Eli

I think if these kind of games continue to be produced and bring new blood into the hobby, great! I do not have enough of 2 things opponents and time to play them. Dare I hope for VSF pre-painted?

The mini;s look nice enough. I've heard mention that the mini's will be available unpainted as well. Maybe someone can confirm or deny ?

"It amazes me how people can claim "xx" years experience in the hobby and "know" so little."

The Same as how SOME gamers can complain about "crappy pre-paints", when, as near as I can tell, they can't do as well themselves.

~Mike

On the proliferation of mini games in non-wargame specialised retail outlets I happened to spot Lord of the Rings Battle Games (or similar souding) starter sets in my local Morrisons (a UK supermarket for those beyond our shores).

No idea how well they'll shift, but it's the first time I've seen something like that sold there (normally the most toy related stuff they sell is Hot Wheels and similar diecast cars).

Cheers,

Martin

I'm more thinking of people who are already geeky, but don't have the time to model and paint. For them it might keep them in the hobby or get them to stop playing with a mate's models.

"Nobody spends good time painting up an ancient German warband because they are the 'army to beat' this season, they do it because they have a historical interest in them."

Not true, power gamers are as likely to be found in Historicals as Fantasy. Anybody familiar with the various historical mini tournaments can attest to this.

Allen are you taking the mick? Not read Battlegames – unacceptable. As for At whatever it is, please remember the parentage of this product – rest assured it will be ghastly. What's encouraging of course is that:

a) the game will be in the bargain bins for a fiver in January and we can all get the 'nicely painted' figures for next to nowt
b) hopefully the parent company will implode and the figure designers can shift over to sculpting some nice historical soldiers

By the way – I did buy my son the very lovely D&D boxed set – semi-nice plastic things in there, but for heavens sake it was thirty or forty quid and seemed to have had all the fun ripped out of it.

AT-43 will fail. It will not be carried at Walmart, Target or Toys 'R' Us because, at $60-$80, it is priced out of range of most people who shop at these discount chains. These stores carry a lot of boardgames, yet they don't even carry high end boardgames from Fantasy Flight (like World of Warcraft) due to their high price.

AT-43 may find a small niche like Rackham's other games (Ragnarok, Confrontation), but it will not even make a dent in the hobby as a whole.

I don't recall seeing any boardgames at Toys R Us priced over $40 USD

I would expand on the types of gamers in the hobby (quoting above and adding to it):

1. those who like to paint and model figures
2. those who like to play games with painted and modeled figures.
3. those who just like to play games and don't care what the army looks like.
4. Historical gamers who enjoy researching and painting and model figures and assembling units or armies.
5. Same as 4 but add like to/actually game with the figures
6. Historical Gamers who just buy rules and/or books.

I am sure this will bring more gamers into the hobby overall but if you go to any wargames convention you can already buy prepainted units for almost any game. This just makes them easier to get.

The other thing is I think a majority of gamers enjoy gaming with metal figures. While the large fantasy brands have pushed more an more plastics out the door and have "forced" them on their gaming customers, I don't think there is an overwhelming preference for plastics. At one point they may have been cheaper and cast well but not anymore. Making plastics by injection mold if done right should be near flawless when cast. If I as a customer "buy into" the plastics idea, they sure as heck better be cast well because trimming flash off a plastic model is a pain in the butt. If painted plastics are the newest development in the process but casting quality isn't part of the equation it will fail. True wargamers take alot of pride in their armies and most don't want to be seen with crap on the table. Why do you think it takes us so long to paint everything?

My last point is that for a wargamer, going to a convention to buy and see the choices and conversing with fellow enthusiasts is pretty much a hobby changing experience for most. And going to a convention and actually gaming significantly transforms the experience for the gamer. Sometimes this transformation takes place in local clubs. Gaming with others and enjoying the social part of the hobby is an experience that tends to solidify a gamers feelings about his/her hobby.

So, it will be a boxed game, I take it…

Wasn't the thing going to be "random", meaning collections made out of booster boxes?

Why are we assuming this things will cost the same a Hybrid or the Ragnarok boxed sets? I doubt the people ta Rackham will so stupid to actually put out something that already exists (painted figs out of the box) and price beyond what's the common rule for such a thing (random booster with X figs).