"Make Holocaust Denialism Against Forum Rules" Topic

I'll make my comments on the Fez.

Could have been phrased as "genocide denialism" too, either way is fine.

Why is this even a question?

Ask Bill.

For ANY sensitive topic – When the blowhards come out and forum decorum gives way to verbal abuse and intimidation, just pull the plug. Otherwise this sort of stuff will go on for 500 pages.

B

I also move for Holocaust (and other genocides) denialism to be made an expulsion offense.

If I knew the internet tricks, I'd probably chase down the individual IP addresses, connect them to a real physical address, and make an announcement in the local paper, too.

Censoring Holocaust deniers makes sense to me.

A decent person can say "I do not wish to associate myself with obnoxious views such as that." On a "private forum", that is within the owner's rights, and cannot be considered "censorship".
Well, it can, but, it's a GOOD censorship!

Seems a bit broad on some of the points, and open to interpretation. I think a better standard is simply whether the individual is intending to offend or provoke vitriolic controversy. Truly grossly obscene and offensive language is already verboten on TMP, as are attacks on groups, whether based on race, religion, sex, national origin, etc.. As it is, it's up to the Editor in Chief's preferences anyway. He can certainly communicate to a member if he finds something over the line, as well as snip and punish as needed. And we, as members, can complain if we find another person's actions to be beyond the pale.

So, Bill, handle it as you see fit. If you want to make an direct statement prohibiting behaviors, do so. It's your call anyway. But I don't think it's possible to protect all potential members of TMP from being offended by all potential statements made by others on TMP, nor do I think you should try. In the end, you'll just have to play it by ear. Of course, site traffic and member reactions can be a guide for you. But I don't see that there's much point in a vote on this.

Sure, why not? I'm surprised there are deniers of the Holocaust on TMP for this poll to be necessary in the first place.

I guess topics on whether the Waffen SS should be 'respected' for their fighting skills TMP link or represented on the gaming table at all invariably lead to 'holocaust denial.'

Believe it or not, but I tried a couple of times to make the discussion NOT about the SS. In fact, all the examples given in the original post were about NOT SS.
In hindsight, I shouldn't have posted it though.

Well stated Parzival.

I confess I've never seen much point in Holocaust denial. Thankfully the brave US, British and Soviet (and other) servicemen and women who uncovered the deathcamps did an admirable job of documenting a horror that frequently seemed worse to them than combat, and more than justification for fighting the war.

As I understand one of the main tenants of holcaust denial, there is argument over what Hitler may or may not have known, which is apparently based entirely on the lack of his signature on the state documents that survived.

IHMO the problem with that view, is that Nazi Germany specifically followed the 'furher prinzip'. That means that Hitler certainly gets the credit for correctly reading the political situation that would allow him to walk into the Rhineland, annex Austria and Chekoslovakia, and forsee the collapse of the French.

It also means he gets the blame for completly misreading the will to fight on of the Brits, Soviets and US, and for all the atrocities that were committed under Nazi rule.

I think we all love history here (however heated we may become over specific differences of opinion). I am immensely proud that my father fought the Japanese in New Guinea, and an uncle fought Rommel at Tobruk an El Alemain.

However honourable Rommel the man and the general was, WW 2 had to be fought and won by the allies or the world would be a hideous place now.

Years ago I got into a discussion regarding the Armenian Genocide and the genocides of the Greeks of Asia Minor. A bunch of Turks and their sympathisers jumped in and denied it up and down (admittedly this is the official stance of the Turkish Government). If you are going to ban people who deny the Nazis' Final Solution, ban ALL genocide deniers.

world would be a hideous place now.

Well it is a hideous place now and getting worst.

Really, Mithmee? What color is the sky in this hideous-getting-more-hideous world of yours?

Remember, one person's Freedom of Speech doesn't supersede another's Freedom of Speech……..

@ Monophagos: I agree with you, genocide is genocide and we shouldn't say one is worse than any other. After all, in the end the Nazi's weren't 'just' going after the Jews, they pretty much did for the Gypsies as well and would have done their best to elimate any Slavic people under their control had they established their 'living space in the east' (sorry, can't think of the German word at the moment.

@Mithmee: certainly there are pockets of horror. But the majority of Europeans, Americans, and Asians can go about their daily business without fear of being deported/executed not for what they have done, but for who their parents were. That constitutes a great victory over the vison of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

@ Flying Glove: Quite true, and it may seem inconsistant that someone who voted in favour of the suggestion would agree. But this is called the 'Miniatures Page', I come here mostly for wargaming information. Its wonderful that we have so many talented historians who contribute to the knowledge base of our community, but seriously, if I want to investigate the holocaust (or, as pointed out, ANY holocaust) there are a lot of other places I would look first.

I am against fascism in all of its forms.

I am not against debate, or the mature discussion of the horrors of the slaughter of millions at the hands of evil men.

I am against the people who would deny the deaths of millions.

(however)

Some very public doubters – have been attacked for saying..

It was not just Nazi Germany that committed terrible atrocities and slaughter of innocents.

The victims were not just the Jewish peoples of central Europe… many other peoples (Races/Religions/Disabled or whatever) have been systemically slaughtered at one time or another (in the war of 1939-45.. or earlier and sadly later twenty century wars)

Discussion of this, education on why the people who do this are evil, why it is morally wrong, etc.. are the only way forward. Otherwise new generations will come to accept old ideologies and think that a societies ills can be cured by rising up against a scapegoat

I guess topics on whether the Waffen SS should be 'respected' for their fighting skills TMP link or represented on the gaming table at all invariably lead to 'holocaust denial.'

No, its not inevitable. You can say – yeah they were scum but some units fought hard.

It's hard to have a realistic WWII battle set in some theatres on the table top without them so yeah, play with them by all means (but no supermen rules please).

There you go a discussion without denying anything.

It seems to me that holocaust denial is sort of "super trolling". I can't imagine a circumstance where that wouldn't lead to a dawghouse membership drive. Thus, it is banned de facto if not de jure.

My problem with banning such folks is the need to define what "Holocaust denialism" actually is.

I think it's pretty clear that if someone says "it never happened," then they are in denial. However, what about people (like me) who believe that while a huge and hideous crime was committed, things may not have happened in quite in the way that have been presented? It is nearly impossible to do research on the topic, or introduce new information, that might endanger the given narrative of what happened. It is, in fact, against the law in some countries to question the given narrative.

And to me, when someone sees a need to pass a law against asking questions about something, it means they are hiding something. The Truth (tm) doesn't need laws to protect itself – if you disagree with it, you'll just be proven wrong. But at least you get to ask questions on your way to finding out you're wrong. If you don't get to ask questions at all, something's fishy.

I suppose I'll be banned now…

That's why I'm against a ban. The truth (universal no tm) doesn't need a ban to protect it. Even outright denial isn't a threat- it's so easy to prove it happened its no contest as a discussion.
Did it happen as usually portrayed? – open to some discussion I suppose – there is a good argument that it was a lot worse than usually portrayed, the horror has been played down as the West reintegrated Germany into the anti-Soviet alliance in the Cold War. We look at c6million Jewish deaths in the camps – don't forget the Gypsies, Slavs, Homosexuals, mentally and physically handicapped and then all the non-combat related murders in the occupied states. There are good estimates that at least double the numbers and may bring the total up to between 15 to 32 million (NOT Combat related note). So yeah I think the current accepted narrative might be questioned. We're probably letting the Nazis off very lightly at the moment.

Against LIBERTY

Even discussing and debating this issue is giving the deniers legitimacy. We are saying they have a credible, rational argument that is worthy of discussion and debate.

No matter how ridiculous you think their position is, other people will think they make sense. We cannot allow them have a place at the table, just as if this is a rational position to take. There is no debating this topic I can't believe we are even discussing this.

The truth doesn't need a ban to protect it.

I bet someone in Germany in 1933 was saying the same thing. How did that work out? It is happening right now ISIS has a slick recruiting scheme and it is working. They lie and lie and yet they attract followers.

My problem with banning such folks is the need to define what "Holocaust denialism" actually is.

Here you go, these folks will tell you exactly what it is.

link

Against LIBERTY

You do know that there is no inalienable right to membership and unrestricted posting on TMP? Posting is a privilege here, as we are clients and customers of Bill Armintrout.

Denial is a right, and expressing it ought to bother no one enough to make up rules to prohibit it….

You can express it all you want, wherever you want, just not on TMP (based on the way the polls are running).

All the chest-thumping about restricted freedom of speech doesn't carry a whole lot of weight when you're talking about a private, non-government website.

"Denial is a right, and expressing it ought to bother no one enough to make up rules to prohibit it…."

Only in the countries where it isn't illegal.

Countries which have been occupied or ruled by Nazis tend be a bit less tolerant of them than the USA.

As noted above, TMP isn't a country.

This forum is about wargaming. I really don't want to be bothered with such trolling here. All such arguments as to whether this is restricting free speech falls as far as I am concerned because once someone starts saying stuff that can be interpreted as denial they are clearly way off topic in any case.

I am not talking about "free speech". I'm talking about an approach to creating an atmosphere for dialogue. If Bill wants to institute rules prohibiting the discussion of certain topics he's perfectly capable and within his rights to do so. But I think that rules prohibiting certain topics will drive away more people than it will attract or retain….

But I think that rules prohibiting certain topics will drive away more people than it will attract or retain . . .

That argument doesn't hold up in the face of reality.

How many good TMPers have been driven away by (or banned because of) "certain topics" that *weren't* prohibited or restrained over the last few years? I can name a dozen without even trying.

How many posters do you really expect to leave TMP because they can't openly deny the Holocaust, genocide, racism, or misogyny?

How many are going to leave because those sorts of to topics are tolerated?

Just curious, has there been a lot of holocaust/Holocaust denial on TMP?

Admittedly, this is a private forum, so the Editor in Chief may do as he sees fit; I'm just asking if denial of any sort is running rampant on TMP. For that matter, has there been any form of harassment, misogyny, racism, etc. since the "Needs More Boobies" brouhaha a couple of months ago? If not, then it would seem that some TMPers are a lot more 'sensitive' than I thought and have way too much time on their hands trolling for the 'fascists' on the forum – why only go after the 'fascists' – how about the 'Communists' on the forum as well?

Admittedly, topics about the Waffen-SS being 'scum' are a matter of opinion – did the Waffen-SS kill prisoners? Yes, they did – no argument. Did the Soviets kill prisoners, too? Yes. How about the U.S., Brits, French, Tito's partisans, etc. ad nauseum – there are cases where all of the above did kill prisoners. If you're going to argue that the men of the Waffen-SS were 'scum', then you might as well argue that Confederates were 'scum' too [they fought for an 'evil' and 'illegal' country] or the Crusaders, or WW1 Turks or Red Army Soviets during the RCW and Collectivization period or any other group that slaughtered civilians.

I know that comment will have the 'sensitive' TMPers howling like gutted banshees for my disbarment from the forum, so if you want my physical address so you can 'out' me to the local press [hopefully, you speak and write Polish], feel free to email me at: jestarnes66@gmail.com and I'll be more than happy to give it to you.

Admittedly, topics about the Waffen-SS being 'scum' are a matter of opinion – did the Waffen-SS kill prisoners? Yes, they did – no argument. Did the Soviets kill prisoners, too? Yes. How about the U.S., Brits, French, Tito's partisans, etc. ad nauseum – there are cases where all of the above did kill prisoners.

False equivalency.

We're talking about a state-sponsored program that functioned across all levels of society and industry for the purpose of mass murder on an unprecedented scale.

There's a gigantic paper trail of evidence (thank, efficient Germans) and millions of dead. There's no mystery or doubt. And there's no comparison to individual acts, either.

But keep telling yourself that it's somehow "okay" and "no worse than…" or "well, how it that worse than the loss of one life…"

Man, the mental twists people will go through to justify insanity. Sheesh.

"Someone doing something bad" does not excuse someone else doing something bad.

False equivalency???

The central question is:

Did an armed force kill prisoners?

The total killed is only relevant to an argument that seeks to mitigate an affirmative response.

Either prisoners were killed or they were not – the number killed is not relevant to determining if an armed force killed prisoners.

Just a thought.

DJ COALTRAIN wrote

The central question is:

Did an armed force kill prisoners?

The total killed is only relevant to an argument that seeks to mitigate an affirmative response.

Either prisoners were killed or they were not – the number killed is not relevant to determining if an armed force killed prisoners.

Just a thought.

No. The central question is about the SS involvement (central involvement) in the Holocaust and the systematic murder of prisoners.
I'm pretty sure I was the one who called the SS 'scum' in the original thread and I'm very happy to stand by it.

The 'Waffen' SS name is a distinction often used by apologists to pretend that somehow the 'fighting heroes' of the Waffen SS were different from the camp murderers. They weren't. Many rotated through both branches and they all adhered to the came murderous ideology that treated the weak as deserving their fate: capture, enslavement, torture and death.

To rank the crimes carried out in the heat of battle by a few allied servicemen against the systematic destruction and murder carried out by the SS is the most disingenuous false equivalence imaginable. The SS murdered millions of innocent civilians and thousands of military POWs as part of a planned process.
Scum.

Poll is VERY poorly worded with biased language built-in to the choices.

That's why I'm against a ban. The truth (universal no tm) doesn't need a ban to protect it. Even outright denial isn't a threat- it's so easy to prove it happened its no contest as a discussion.

I can easily imagine this being said in 1933 Germany. How did that turn out? Sometimes the truth needs to be protected against the big lie. Propaganda if applied correctly and often can trump the truth.

To rank the crimes carried out in the heat of battle by a few allied servicemen against the systematic destruction and murder carried out by the SS is the most disingenuous false equivalence imaginable.

Yup.

It's the difference between a Ford Motors employee running over the wife who was cheating on him (clearly murder and inexcusable) and Ford Motors as a corporation manufacturing cars for the express purpose of murdering all women, cooperating with other industries for the orderly transportation and disposal of all the corpses, while the government organizes a national propaganda campaign to demonize women and train a generation that women are the source of all evil.

It ain't just about the numbers, it's the gigantic, industrial system designed and executed at all levels of society for the purpose of exterminating the entirety of Jews, Roma, et al.

If someone is unwilling or unable to grasp that fact, there's nothing that can be said or done for them. It's monstrous and the scope of it is difficult to reconcile with our comfy current lives, but that's no excuse for ignorance or denial.

It's actually getting creepy how some folks seem actively willing to ignore this reality.

I am generally a staunch advocate of free speech and freedom of intellectual inquiry.

However there are times where civil discourse requires that some speech be curtailed. Genocide denial on a message board site devoted to the hobby of miniature wargaming is one of those times.

If you really feel you want to leave TMP because you can't deny genocide here I am sure there is a website just frothing at the chance to discuss such topics.

I am sure there is a website just frothing at the chance to discuss such topics.

Ha! Good luck trying that over there. They're all far too liberal to tolerate that sort of thing!

Voted yes for this. What time zone does the polls end in?

Rick Dangerous wrote

Ha! Good luck trying that over there. They're all far too liberal to tolerate that sort of thing!

From what I've seen of the other place it would be 'allowed' but freedom of speech would allow the perpetrator to be swamped with the derision and scorn they deserved. Nobody would politely point out the 'error' they'd tell it like it is.

Sir you are correct. You could/can say what ever you want. True freedom of speech. But be prepared for others to also exercise their freedom to call you out and tell you why your a ………! No editor to protect the chosen few or impose their political opinion on you. I doubt that many of the posters here could deal with it.

What amazes me is that this is a question at all. What amazes me even more is that 100 people voted in favour of denying the Holocaust on TMP…..

100 people voted in favour of denying the Holocaust on TMP

You're reading it wrong. 100 people voted in favour of not censoring those who make the denial.

Or you can look at it as 100 people enabled the denial……

If you wish.