"Does Ground Scale/Figure Scale Bother You?" Topic

Figure ratios and ground scale effects do not bother me and are necessary to translate historical battles into a manageable presentation.

Phil

A lot of "blast from the past" names in that poll suggestion thread including one of mine from when I had been banned and was being an annoying troll.

I first noticed this back in 1981 or so plating 1776. My 25mm 1:20 regiment bately stretched the length of an HO scale barn. I laughed and kept on playing.
It has never bothered me.
IT'S ONLY A GAME.

Sometimes.

Especially when playing musket period, and effective ranges should be equal to the length of a battalion.

Don't especially care, but I do like big hordes of troops when playing Grand Tactical games, which is probably why my ACW games are mostly 15mm and my Napoleonics are mostly 6mm while my Colonial and WWII games are often 28mm

Probably the biggest shift for me was SYW – I used to use 12 fig infantry units but this just didn't look right to me, so I moved to 24 fig infantry units and 12 fig cavalry units – which I think look much better. Since I have, all told, about 100 infantry battalions all told this was not a trivial enterprise, but as I said I like the look

I voted itīs only a game, because, well, itīs only a game.

I am not bothered by ground scale, but I do want it to look right. I do a lot of naval gaming, and even at 1/3000th scale you still have to fudge the ranges to keep things manageable. But at least the fudging gives an impression of realistic distances, even if they donīt match up to the scale.

What Phil and Texas Jack said. The figures are only pretty 3D counters, so having one figure represent a battalion or whatever really doesn't bother me.

Having said that, it needs to avoid being silly. Silliness is in the of the beholder of course, but I try to avoid e.g. figures being taller than buildings. It is all about the game telling you a story and suspension of disbelief.

I am easily pleased, some people less so.

Only a game, although I do prefer 28mm for skirmish and smaller figures for larger battles.

What others said. It's only a game. Like Martin above, silly is my point of tolerance though. I don't want to play a skirmish game in 28mm where the ray guns have a range of only 1".

My first experience with miniature gaming was medieval with individually based figures. There was no question of ratios, a figure was what it appeared to be. The entire army could represent a much larger army, but the game mechanics were "man on man" and resolved that way. Later, a friend turned it all into a ground-scale exercise, so that "historical battles" would be fought out on the scaled down terrain, and every man would be represented by the width of the bases, etc. I still saw "one figure is one man" and still do, even though for realism purposes I also remember that one inch is actually ten yards. So I chose "…doesn't bother me". The scale of the miniature is immaterial. But I agree with the observation that the terrain ought to match the scale of the miniatures to avoid visual jarring….

But I agree with the observation that the terrain ought to match the scale of the miniatures to avoid visual jarring….

Many people use buildings "one size down" to reduce the visual effects of the difference between ground scale and figure scale.

Not bothered by any of those things, but I don't think there is anything "only" about being a game, or that wargaming is only a game. Other wg conceits that don't bother me:

- My dudes are in one pose the whole game.
- A lot of the time, all those dudes are also in the exact same pose.
- Everybody (damn near, unless I mod) is right handed.
- Sand, mud, tall grass, etc. don't change when troops march through them.
- Bases. 'Nuff said.
- I ran out of French (let's say), so I filled out the unit with orks … oops … orques.
- None of the trees are tall enough.
- Grades and slopes are more out of whack than ground scale
- My troops walk on water instead of wading.
- They also don't splash.
- The sun isn't casting the right shadows or moving across the sky as game time progresses.
- Those waves are static.
- Not one single combatant on the table ever scratches his or her butt (please, someone post a pic to prove this one wrong!).
- Also, none of them are picking their nose (we can skip the counterproof pic for this one…).
- The dudes who are looking the wrong way always look the wrong way and the ones that don't, don't.
- Nobody's shoes need tied.
- Godzilla stays the same scale relative to the Japanese military throughout the whole thing.
- Windows don't get broken.
- Stairs.
- The entire universe just kinda stops right over there.
- After 24 hours of combat, none of my minis is in more need of a shave than when they started, not even the Eastern European women.
- You don't actually know what a chupacabra really looks like.
- It doesn't smell like a division of cavalry (I hope).
- Nobody tracks dirt into the house.
- No one soils themselves in combat, even a little.
- US Navy officers of the 20th/21st Centuries are not painted in uniforms with a dozen vibrantly unique colors of khaki.
- There are do-overs.
- No sweaty pits (on the minis).
- The weather vane isn't rotating.
- Urban areas seem oddly devoid of stray dogs and cats.
- I can see for miles and miles.
- Nicely polished boots don't get scuffed in combat.
- The only ones who spill food on their clothes are zombies.
- The food in the stalls at the market hasn't attracted insects yet.
- Shadows of clouds do not waft across the idyllic rolling hills on a sunny day.
- The clip-clop clip-clop chugga-chugga-chugga weeeeeeee in Circus Maximus is coming from some hairy guy above the arena and not the actual chariots.
- The wounded are always wounded in exactly the same spot, every time.
- Time scale, anyone?
- Nobody's hair gets mussed by a sudden breeze.
- Large armies conducting bivouac and combat don't leave litter behind them.
- I can apply advance and transfer, but not heel and pitch.
- Elevation scale isn't consistent with either figure or ground scale.
- Late 20th and early 21st century forces don't have extension cords all over the place.
- Nobody spills their coffee.
- There isn't a line for the bathroom (on the board).
- I can track things that didn't actually leave tracks in the terrain.

Didn't really find a choice that applies to me. This is one of those questions, like a lot of them, that cannot be reduced to a few choices. The answer is IT DEPENDS!

I prefer 25/28mm+ for skirmish, but I have no problem with 25/28mm in battalions/regiments. Three to four figures per base depending on THE RULES, you are using. I do not like 15mm or smaller skirmish, that is one figure on one base.

When using ships with figures on land, I like to keep the same scale. 15mm figures means a big 15mm ship. The land figures should fit onto the ship and look in scale (even if the figs won't ever go on the ships).

Ground scale sometimes bothers me. I tried to work up a 15mm, regimental Vicksburg scenario with ships on the river. 1/2400 scale ships did not look right with 15mm guns and artillery crews firing at them. If you use 15mm ships then the 1:40 ground scale is totally wrong. The cliffs would be huge! I talked to Richard Houston about this and he said there is no way to work out the ground scale vs. the figure and ship scale at Vicksburg or any similar scenario. I agree.

It would look all wrong. The ones that I have seen done with the 1/2400 scale ships,15mm figures and 1:40 ground scale look skewed, doesn't bother some but it does me.

I had someone point out to me a year or so ago that what I thought were 15mm buildings was actually 10mm. You know what, he was right! The manufacture lied to me! Too late now, I still use them.

Saw a beautiful "Napoleon's Battles" set up at a convention, 15mm, brigade scale and the very first thing I noticed was the 6mm buildings used in the town instead of the one or two buildings for brigade scale.

I wasn't playing in it but everyone was having a good time and that's what matters. However several people commented in hush tones the buildings are the wrong scale. Just didn't look right.

YMMV

I don't think there is anything "only" about being a game, or that wargaming is only a game.

Quite !

That said, I am more than happy if for Winston or Texas Jack, their games are 'only games' – they are in the best place to judge their own games* and good luck to them – but I don't think they are in a position to judge _all _wargames by the same token.

I always believe you get out what you put in. Give or take.

Phil
* (and there is nothing wrong with being only a game: draughts (checkers) is only a game but is hugely popular and I can play it with elderly relatives who have no interest in military history)

Quite !

That said, I am more than happy if for Winston or Texas Jack, their games are 'only games'

Thanks, and I quite agree, as well. I have no problem playing against someone who feels it is "just a game" even if I don't feel that for the game in question.

WRT abstract games being just a game, you should go to Crete(possibly in the past, as I believe they are on the Euro now) and see the college kids playing backgammon for drachma on the waterfront. Very serious.

as long as movement and weapon range use the same or seem to use the same Ground scale distortion its okay, but when a trouper can move the full or even half the range of a rifle in one turn it is a turn off to me. as in only being fired on one time or not at all in closing the range into close combat. I have played games where units can move through a rifles range and only be fired on one time. this is so wrong it my mind that it takes all the fun out of playing a game.

Etotheipi:

Serious game play has little to do with it. The game itself can be as lighthearted as you want. But I like everything to look as right as I can get it. I do my best. I have seen games that use masking tape roads and rivers.

I think to myself, why when there are cloth roads that look much better and they don't move around much, if you are just a little careful or if you're use to masking tape roads! Besides masking tape wears on my game mats.

High level chess tournaments and poker are serious, stressful games but we are talking about something different. What we do is like model railroading, history and gaming all in one. So looks count for some. Part of the appeal of our hobby is the visual aspect.

I canīt speak for the illustrious Winston, but for me the fact that they are just games is what makes them fun. I would certainly not like it if all that shooting were real, regardless of the ground scale!

I canīt speak for the illustrious Winston, but for me the fact that they are just games is what makes them fun. I would certainly not like it if all that shooting were real, regardless of the ground scale!

+1 for T-Jack!

+2 if the choice is between only being a game or people have to die!

Of course that is a false opposition created for the sake of TMP argument (and we can all agree with it or be howled down ) …

For me the fun in the wargame is not that the shooting is not real it is that the game is designed with a thoughtful eye to the historical/military content.

The fact that people care about issues of scale and plausibility that jar, despite the fact the they may be internally coherent and the game plays well enough should be ample demonstration that it is not just a game. If it was, the fact that the scales were coherent and it played well enough would tick all the boxes – if there are more boxes to tick it is because it is more than just a game.

From my point of view, of course.

Phil

It doesn't bother me that much. I do not mind battles using larger minis representing scores of men each as long as they are painted well (or at least the opposition is painted better than mine). I do not mind battles with 6mm or 15mm minis since the larger number of small miniatures makes it look more like there are thousands on a battlefield.

It all bugs me, but then, I've been told I can be irritable. Especially late at night when I ought to be in bed already.

However, it doesn't bug me enough to ruin a game. It's just something I notice. I understand the reason for the differences, and accept they are necessary evils in order to make a game reasonably controllable on a reasonably sized surface. I haven't got a basketball court to lay out the game upon, after all.

Depends on the disparity. If rifle range is 10 cm, and I'm using 42mm figures it would feel stupid. Also closer matches allow you to grasp the situation more instinctively- you appreciate the open ground size.

not all ..and for 2 reasons:

- every possible calculation to set the matter..will result, from a mathematical point of view, into a mistake

- its terribly boring to take into account that data instead of choosing freely, as i did, the dimension of casting that i like.