"Reporting IP Infringement?" Topic

Just in case, I have just ordered one of each of the packs!

CC

I wonder if the reporting sculptor then reported himself to the music recording industry for the mp3s on his harddrive. :D

I wonder how many of the people talking about "social obligation" ever do a rolling stop at an intersection, or exceed the speed limit even by a little amount and don't report themselves to the police.

I love how self-righteous people can get when making moral judgements of others, then use a different standard for themselves. Remove the plank from your own eye, then you can help get the splinter out of someone else's. ;)

The murky area of intellectual property right infringement is slowly changing given recent U.S. Supreme Court decisions concerning people who file for patents on ideas – not that the person filing it actually has a working or operational thing, just the idea of what it should be.

In this case it would appear that this is a clear IP violation – sculpting the "predator" models based on the movie. However, the sculptor or company making these things COULD have applied for or negotiated a licensing agreement to split profits or share profits from the models produced. Then – there would be no problem.

However, most hollywood film companies believe that any product they own the IP to is worth a more money than most companies can afford to pay to license the product properly. Hence, no product is ever produced because of the corporate greed of the larger firms.

The whole lawsuit happy world is filled with people and corporations willing to use the legal system to try to get rich off of the skills and abilities of others to do things they can't or won't.

So, I guess my opinion on this is everyone has to do what they believe is right. And if this person wants to be a whistle-blower because he thinks it is the right thing to do, it is his conscious that he has to live with.

As for the IP infringer – hopefully you can negotiate a resolution without losing your livelihood – perhaps you could even negotiate a contract to sculpt models for them in the future since your sculpts appear to be fairly good.

General Montcalm
"Why doesnt someone call a lawyer fatwah?"

Shakespeare did that, Henry IV "First we kill all the lawyers".
Now that's what I call regime change.

There's no way can I be convinced that a small mini company that produces gaming figures based on a movie is the same type of threat to society as a burglar or mugger.

I would of course report it to the police if I saw a break-in or mugging. But as far as I'm concerned, the IP owner is the one that has the responsibility to protect their property in civil court as they see fit. Not my problem.

"I wonder if the reporting sculptor then reported himself to the music recording industry for the mp3s on his harddrive. :D

I wonder how many of the people talking about "social obligation" ever do a rolling stop at an intersection, or exceed the speed limit even by a little amount and don't report themselves to the police."

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I always get a chuckle out of this argument. Demanding perfection out of other human beings as a way of excusing one's own faults. Last time I checked, saying that "everyone else did it too!" didn't pass muster with any parent or policeman worth his salt. It's a shame that adults, as well as children, still resort to it.

"It's a shame that adults, as well as children, still resort to it."

There are adults doing this? I had concluded otherwise.

Allen

"On the other hand, GW paid a huge amount of money to license LOTR for 28mm."

Correction: GW paid a huge amount of money to license LOTR for 28mm with the figures based on the movie characters/races.

Wrong. That is YOUR opinion

lol john, Well; yes, who else's did you think it would be?

"I always get a chuckle out of this argument."

And I get a chuckle out of people who miss the boat and still try to feel smug about it. :)

I don't believe I said that "everyone else did it too" was a valid excuse for IP infringement or any other crime.

I do, however, find it terribly amusing how many people decry the act (and clearly take great pride in doing so) without stopping to consider how many of their own actions similarly violate 'social contracts'.

I find the "everyone else is doing it" argument no better or worse than the "someone else did something bad (in this case IP infringement), so I'm not nearly as bad in my own sin" attitude that seems to prevail.

"I don't believe I said that "everyone else did it too" was a valid excuse for IP infringement or any other crime.

I do, however, find it terribly amusing how many people decry the act (and clearly take great pride in doing so) without stopping to consider how many of their own actions similarly violate 'social contracts'. "

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Honestly, from here I can't tell the difference. "You're no better than him" is simply a variant of "everyone else did it." It sounds like an attempt to stifle (no pun intended) the objection, rather than addressing it.

And just to be clear — I'm not saying that's what you intended to communicate. That's just how it sounded.

"I have always been against ripping off others people's ideas."

Wow. That is quite the statement. So you are totally against four-wheeled vehicles, cordless drills, bicycles, electric lighting, refrigerators – need I go on? How do you even define such a concept? I used to think similar thoughts until I followed the thoughts through to their conclusion.

The idea that "IP" can be "stolen" by "theives" and "pirates" has gone WAY too far, IMO. Was it really so bad when all we had was trademarks, patents and copyrights? So Copplestone sculpted some figures that are inspired by a film. So what? Art is all about inspiration. It's not like he is recasting an existing model (copyright violation) or selling them as "Predators" (trademark). There are other miniatures available that are insipred by films (even AvP). IANAL, but from what I have read, the licencing usually allows the producer to use the trademarks, and to produce actual copies of the owners works.

The sad thing is that the studios have so many resources available compared to miniature sculptors, that even the threat of a frivilous lawsuit is enough to force a company to pull a miniature line. The fact that the lines are pulled makes the sculptor look "guilty" when in fact, they simply cannot afford to defend themselves. How many of us could defend against a multi-million dollar lawsuit – even if the plaintiff had no chance at all of actually winning their case in court?

For the record, I am in the apparent minority that doesn't believe any IP infringement is taking place.

Very well put, tchristney. I'd say your thoughts most closely mirror my own on this topic.

General Montcalm (above) claimed that the sculptor who "turned in" Mark Copplestone was Drew Williams of Wizkids. Can anyone confirm this for us? In my neighbourhood (which may be similar to nycjadie's above?), a rat is worse than an artist following his inspiration any day of the week!

Why, oh why, does everything has to start in Poland ?
First WWII and now Mr. Scibor and his magic IP 'sculpts'…

Grrrrr ! :)

Piotr

Personally, I want to know which sculptor did it. I want to vote with my pocketbook and not buy a damn thing he sculpts and NOT support any company he may sculpt for. Sorry guys. IP infringement is one thing if it really hurts someone, but in this slap happy world we live in where everyone cries foul at the drop of a dime, if it really didnt hurt anyone, why bother? Its the fans that suffer, not the company.

I guess I wouldn't worry too much if any large corporation targeted me for a lawsuit. I would happily defend my actions and try to work out a solution which was win/win for both of us. However, I am not most miniature sculptors or even in the business.

If it was Wizkids who did the deed and Coppelstone who allegedly infringed on the IP – Go Coppelstone! At least he makes stuff we want to purchase! Instead of cheap plastic clix stuff which for the most part is dreadful.

"Why, oh why, does everything has to start in Poland ?
First WWII and now Mr. Scibor and his magic IP 'sculpts'…"

That is not entirely accurate now is it?

Very true Jovian,
If it were indeed Wizkids that did this, I think its another pitiful excuse by them to try to hold onto their past glory and keep a company on the decline in business. I am so glad to see that very few stores in this area bother to stock many clix products or bother to run their games. I'm still interested in knowing for sure which sculptor it was that turned reported this issue. If it was Drew Williams thats so sad as his work was exceptional. I will have to check to see which companies produce and sell figures from the sculptor that did this as I will make it a point to stop buying their products and letting them know why I did.

I believe that darthfozzywig's point was along the lines of the following quote from a certain ancient book: "If there is one of you who has not sinned, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

I doubt very much whether this quote was meant to justify the "everybody else is doing it" argument …

I'm missing my preferred poll option:

"Pathetically cheap of the sculptor and pathetically cheap of the whistle-blower."

doing something like that is not really art but (merely) artistic craft, since it lacks the creativity, frankly.

If I were a sculptor (especially one so experienced and skilled) I wouldn't even bother sculpting such things.

People never cease to amaze me. This IP Crap has gotten out of control. With everything that has been illustrated, filmed, or even sculpted in our little hobby there really is nothing original left. So every time a sculptor creates a new design he may be infringing on someone's IP, if the IP holder deems it so and has the money to pursue the issue.

Think about how many fantasy artwork pictures you have seen in your life. Now imagine your a sculptor and you've decided to make the ultimate miniature but it turns out your inspiration was based loosly on some picture you saw 15 years ago. Now you're a thief, give me a break.

IP law has gotten to the ridiculous point.

If it's Drew Williams who reported these figures, it'd be the ultimate in hypocrisy considering he sculpts a lot of Battletech stuff. Battletech, a game line that has TWO series of figures that can no longer be produced and sold because of copyright issues.

I suspect the day is coming when as I walk down the street whistling the latest 'gangsta rap ditty' hands in my pockets and a blue bird on my shoulder credits will be automatically removed from my account for royalty payments to the mega corporation that has song writers shackled to desks and artisits in a trailer in the back.

Ah Capitolism!

Better go buy one of each pack from Mark-I hope this is a brilliant marketing ploy, sales on these guys must be smashing!

You kids are going to be in so much trouble when the OFM gets home!

Allen

Oh dang, Allen's right! Quick, hide the evidence and pretend we've been painting more phalangites! :D

Call me a complete moral degenerate and anarchist but I love it when companies release my favourite movie, book or comic characters in miniature form. I wouldn't do it myself as I am a total chicken but if someone else wants to take the risk I am willing to shell out the money.

"I suspect the day is coming when as I walk down the street whistling the latest 'gangsta rap ditty' hands in my pockets and a blue bird on my shoulder credits will be automatically removed from my account for royalty payments to the mega corporation that has song writers shackled to desks and artisits in a trailer in the back."

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That's a pretty sneaky blue bird!! But I call BS on this. How can you whistle gangsta rap??? ;-)

"But I call BS on this. How can you whistle gangsta rap?"

Dynamite Hack did a very whistlable version of "Boys in the hood"!

Of course I'd probably be more comfortable actually whistling the "She's too fat" polka!

Burn the bastard! Let them burn!
I will not be buying any of the trash the reporting sculpture makes. Let him rot! Let him Rot!

"There's no way can I be convinced that a small mini company that produces gaming figures based on a movie is the same type of threat to society as a burglar or mugger.

I would of course report it to the police if I saw a break-in or mugging. But as far as I'm concerned, the IP owner is the one that has the responsibility to protect their property in civil court as they see fit. Not my problem."

sounds like something a non-IP owner would say. if you own IP and somebody "infringes", it seems a lot more like a burglary than a mugging. either way, somebody might have done just as well reaching into my pocket and stealing my (or yours) wallet. actually it is worse. considering the length of IP, they could be depriving you heirs of income. how would you feel if someone stole your kid's bike? it's just a toy, right? IP crimes are usually in the federal jurisdiction. while some here may not take that seriously, even burglars and muggers take the feds seriously….

"Dynamite Hack did a very whistlable version of "Boys in the hood"!"

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I'm having visions of Harpo Marx doing that now. There is some real comedy potential here!

"doing something like that is not really art but (merely) artistic craft, since it lacks the creativity, frankly."

So Michaelangelo, Da Vinci, et. al are merely craftsmen? They got their inspiration from the human form. Why is it illegal or unethical (in your mind) for Mark Copplestone to sculpt something from a film he has seen?

So what sort of things would you sculpt? An abstract blob? Perhaps a girl in a chainmail bikini and a sword three sizes too big? Maybe poo in a jar and put a "Best Before" date on it? Maybe write a book where space ships fight in space and guys run around in powered armour suits? Sorry to sound trite, but comments like this bother me. There is not much in art that hasn't been done before, often many, many, many times.

Jovian1: I wouldn't be quite so flippant about being sued by someone/thing with loads of cash. In at most of these cases the plaintiffs are only interested in a "We Win, You Lose Everything" outcome. The best way to such an outcome is to drain the defendant in the pre-trial litigation. They don't want a judge's decision, they just want you broken.

An analogy would be playing poker against Donald Trump. How many times could you go "all in" before you lost everything?

ps. I STILL want to get my hands on some Cravid!!!!

Let's see…
A guy is inspired by a movie.
Sculpts some minis that resemble chacters from the movie.
Gives them a different name.
And is thus a crook?

Seems like the only thing that's being infringed upon is creativity. Or maybe we should just go all the way: maybe being inspired by something should be a crime.

"Inspired property" rights anyone.

Giger was creative when he designed his aliens.
If a sculptor now sculpts these, he is not being creative.

Whoever designed Spielberg's E.T. creature was creative.
If someone sculpted them, they'd be uncreative.

These things are clearly predators, whatever you call them.
As such they are neither public domain IP as humans would be (your art history examples), nor myth or folklore public domain IP (as renditions and takes on dragons, dwarfs, whatever…)

I understand that everything is inspired by something, but it ought to be a mixture of various inspirational bits and pieces of inspirations, mixed with something original added by the artist.

Lacking such originality and creativity it ceases being art and becomes merely the craft of copying.

And, btw, I called it neither unethical nor illegal, just cheap.

"Cheap" as in artistically found wanting, wanna-be-artistic, plagiarizing.

For the record (a phrase that sounds much better in my wife's Australian accent):

I believe the sculptor, who works for WhizKids, merely implied that Copplestone was infringing the Predator franchise and posted a link to Fox's IP policy as WhizKids was producing the licensed version.

From the facts on hand, nobody complained to Fox, brought suit or even sent a cease and desist letter.

"Let's see…
A guy is inspired by a movie.
Sculpts some minis that resemble chacters from the movie.
Gives them a different name.
And is thus a crook?"

NO. it is only when that person tries to profit from the so called "inspiration". i'm terribly inspired by corvettes but i can't build real ones in my garage and sell them to others. at least not the GM variety.

"Seems like the only thing that's being infringed upon is creativity. Or maybe we should just go all the way: maybe being inspired by something should be a crime.

"Inspired property" rights anyone."

i disagree. discouraging others from borrowing your "inspirations" encourages creativity and originality.

let's say you wanted to put a "barbie" doll head on a an "anatomically challenged" doll body and market it as "trailer babs". is it 75% different? you bet. could you get away with it? maybe for a while, but as they say, "you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride…"

Here's another angle to this one. Trademarks must be protected by the owner, or they lose the rights. So, if you ignore other companies' unauthorized use of your ips — regardless of how small the potential market — you can lose their legal ability to enforce the ip rights later. If, at some future point, a larger company produces a moneymaker based on your ip, and you take them to court for losses, the offender will be able to argue that you lost the rights to that property when you failed to enforce it against x, y and z companies.

So if a company defends it's trademarks, then it may not be so much to protect current profits as to protect future ones.

That said, I think that perhaps a property rights holder could do the right thing and agree to license things on a yearly basis for the terms of "$1 and consideration" That would protect their future rights, while allowing hobby companies to appeal to the fan base.

It might also be argued that metal miniatures and plastic "clickie" miniatures are separate markets.

As for reporting Jean Valjean to the authorities? Obviously some people have too much time on their hands.

I do not buy into the lost revenues argument as you cannot prove the revenue exists in the first place.

unfortunately I do not run the world. It would be a vastly changed place.

nebeltex, good points. I know I am being a hypocrite. It's just so hard when that special fig based on your favourite property is produced. I guess I am the quintessential selfish consumer, I just want it and of course I can justify it in my mind.

"Trademarks must be protected by the owner, or they lose the rights."

Yes, but the inaction must be so pronounced that there is virtually no use of the mark. Any use would be sufficient, such as advertising, internet page, etc.

"It might also be argued that metal miniatures and plastic "clickie" miniatures are separate markets."

To a judge, dvd's and miniatures are probably the same market.

'NO. it is only when that person tries to profit from the so called "inspiration". i'm terribly inspired by corvettes but i can't build real ones in my garage and sell them to others. at least not the GM variety.'

If it was a car that you designed that looked like a Corvette, then why not? As long as you aren't adding Chevy logos, calling it a Corvette, or copying GM's engineering. In fact, there already is a market for kit cars inspired by famous cars.

Trapondur, I see your point. However, I am not so bold as to draw a line between art and not-art.

Also, I would like to make it clear that I don't believe that the sculptor did anything wrong either. He did what he thought was right and ethical. That doesn't mean that Copplestone is infringing the Predator "IP", just that he thinks that Copplestone is.

This is a cancerous growth on the miniature figure market. How many pulp and modern figures are in some way inspired by popular culture? If all miniatures that are in some way inspired by a movie, book or TV show are removed, we are the worse for it, without having protected the profits of the entertainment industy.
I love my mp3 player, but only load songs from CD's I own. I think artists are being denied the fruits of their labor in the case of file sharing systems.
I have inadvertently purchased bootleg DVDs off ebay. They were production but only licensed in Hong Kong. The seller misrepresented them, but why is a dvd set of educational tv shows available for $20 USD off ebay and several hundred dollars if I was actually able to find the videos?

"But I call BS on this. How can you whistle gangsta rap?"

Dynamite Hack did a very whistlable version of "Boys in the hood"!

Old gothrock/industrial band I used to play guitar and sing for used to do an absolutely kickass, straight-faced cover of Snoop & Dre's "Deep Cover" at my insistence. Was a lot of fun to sing it in the deep monotone, lemme tell ya. :)

Also, not quite gangsta rap, I realize, but Queens of the Stone Age do a great cover of LL Cool J's "Mama Said Knock You Out," too.

- Monk

"If it was a car that you designed that looked like a Corvette, then why not? As long as you aren't adding Chevy logos, calling it a Corvette, or copying GM's engineering. In fact, there already is a market for kit cars inspired by famous cars."

that is an after-market industry and is not free and clear of IP issues itself. i'm refering to a trademark issue known as "trade dress", and corvettes (without logos) which look just like the ones on the showroom floor now.

poor GM. i understand china is producing unlicensed copies of the cobalt or some other compact? what if you were a GM worker on the cobalt line. sales are flat, especially export sales. how could this happen? you have a kid needing braces and you are worried about keeping your job. if this worker loses his job due to unfair competition, it's likely they will receive public assistance for a time. who pays for public assistance? the public, of course. guess what? maybe it could be your problem after all, or do you just sit back and let that sort of thing happen?

Looks like I need to buy a lot more Copplestone.

Dunno if this has been brought up, but…might the reporting sculptor have been in competition with Mr. Copplestone's products, perhaps?

Hahahahahahahahahahah!!!

The old "poor kid needs braces and you're keeping those from him by buying a foreign car that looks similar" routine!

A classic, by any standard.